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From our private experience, when we find

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a partner, it changes the meaning that we

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assign to our existence.

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And in the same way, I believe that when

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humanity finds a partner, an interstellar

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partner, it will change everything.

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It will make the universe have some

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meaning, because they may have answers to

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questions that we

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didn't figure the answers to,

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but we could also interact with them in a

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way that we can learn about our future.

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Because if they already went through part

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of our technological future, we will see

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technologies that we've never imagined.

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This is knowledge that should be shared

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by all humans, because it will change our

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perspective about our

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place in the universe.

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And for one thing, my hope is that if we

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find evidence for a smarter civilization

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out there, then we would realize that the

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small differences among

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us humans are meaningless.

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And we should treat each other as equal

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members of the human species.

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Cuyas Institute is a pioneer in the field

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of AI-driven comparative and qualitative

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analysis, and was established with the

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primary goal of uncovering the hidden

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value left behind in complex data sets.

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Through a combination of human expertise

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and cutting-edge technologies, Cuyas has

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developed a range of services that cater

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to various industries.

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They are providing valuable insights that

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can help drive growth, formulate

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competitive strategy, and to identify key

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patterns in targeted demographics.

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Head to their site to learn more.

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Cuyas.Institute. That's

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C-O-E-U-S.Institute.

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Welcome to Merged. I'm Ryan Graves.

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Today we're joined by a very

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distinguished guest, Professor Avi Loeb.

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Professor Loeb is a Frank B. Baird Jr.

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Professor of Science

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at Harvard University.

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He has authored eight books

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and over 800 scientific papers.

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Today we're going to

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delve into his views on UAP.

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We'll probe the profound implications of

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these phenomenon to help us better

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understand our place in the universe.

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And now, Professor Avi Loeb.

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Avi, thank you for

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inviting me in your home.

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My pleasure.

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It's truly an honor to be here.

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I'm a bit of a compatriot. I'm a

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Massachusetts native.

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Yourself, currently at Harvard, it's

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always been a school

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that I've looked up to.

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But it's been part of kind of my local

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culture being from Massachusetts.

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So it's truly an honor and a pleasure

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sitting down across from

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you today in your home.

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Thank you. I've been in Massachusetts for

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30 years at Harvard.

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And altogether, half of

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my life were spent here.

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The other half elsewhere, five years at

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Princeton and before

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that, 26 years in Israel.

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That's where I grew up.

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Wow. I'm very excited to talk about some

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of your experiences in Israel.

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But first, let's just start very quickly

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with the Galileo Project.

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We're sitting down across from each other

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because we're both tangentially involved

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in the unidentified anomalous or aerial

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phenomenon activities that

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have been going on lately.

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I think one thing that we can agree on is

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that there's not

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enough data on the topic.

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Can you please tell us what the Galileo

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doing to help remedy that situation?

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Right. So first, why do we

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call it the Galileo Project?

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Because the idea was conceived already by

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Galileo Galilei about four centuries ago.

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And it was a simple idea rather than

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insist of what the world should be.

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Let's look through our

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telescopes to figure it out.

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And he found that

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there are moons to Jupiter.

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And from that came across the idea that

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perhaps the Earth orbits the sun, that in

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fact, not everything

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moves around the Earth.

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And at the time he was cancelled, put in

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house arrest simply because the clergy at

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the time did not want the

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public to hear this opinion.

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Of course, that didn't change the motion

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of the Earth around the sun.

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So that's the lesson to learn that

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reality is whatever it is.

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And we better adapt to it.

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We shouldn't adhere to our wishful

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thinking, which usually

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puts us at a favorable light.

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For example, the universe enters on us.

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That was a view advocated by Aristotle.

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And then for a thousand years, everyone

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believed it because

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it fluttered their ego.

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Also, you see the sun moving in the sky.

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So that seems like a very viable idea.

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But then Galileo argued otherwise.

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Copernicus argued otherwise.

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And we ended up figuring it out despite

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the fact that there was a lot of

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opposition to that view.

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And now we launch a spacecraft that

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reached the destinations thanks to our

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understanding of how the Earth moved

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around the sun, how the planets move

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around the sun and so forth.

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Otherwise, we would never

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reach those destinations.

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We'd never get to Mars or to the moon.

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So reality is whatever it is.

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And we better not

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insist on our prejudice.

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That's the lesson.

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And we apply that within the Galileo

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project to objects near Earth that look

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weird, that do not look like rocks that

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were found before from the solar system

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in our neighborhood, because it is our

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backyard near the Earth.

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And then if you go out to your backyard,

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often you see rocks that are familiar.

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But every now and then you might see a

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tennis ball that was

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thrown by a neighbor.

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And so that's the idea.

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Let's check if there are any

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technological devices that were produced

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by extraterrestrial technological

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civilizations, because we know that most

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stars in the Milky Way galaxy and also in

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the universe formed

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billions of years before the sun.

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So time is measured in billions of years.

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In the cosmos, we live for at best one

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part in a hundred million of the age of

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the universe. That's a tiny blip.

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And moreover, space is vast.

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The size of the observable universe is

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quadrillion times bigger, 10 to the power

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of 15 times bigger than the separation

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between the Earth and the sun.

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So when Elon Musk was interviewed

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recently and was asked about aliens and

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he said, I don't see anything out there.

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And, you know, I'm the space guy and I

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would be the first to

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notice and I will tweet about it.

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That's a little bit presumptuous because

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if if you compare it, let's say, to

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exploring the solar system.

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What he witnessed in his life experience

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is similar to what an ant will see in an

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area the size of the head of a pin

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relative to the size of the planetary

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system around the sun.

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So you cannot say anything about the

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planets in the solar system just by

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observing an area the size of the head of

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a pin, which is pretty much the

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experience of Elon Musk.

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And moreover, his lifespan is one part in

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a hundred million of the age of the sun.

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So claiming I don't see evidence is just

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like a homebody, you know, looking around

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the living room and

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saying, where is everybody?

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We don't have neighbors the way Enrico

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Fermi said. And the answer is, well, you

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better look through your windows and you

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better use telescopes to do that, which

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is what the Galileo project is doing.

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So saying that we don't have

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extraordinary evidence for neighbors,

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technological neighbors without seeking

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the evidence is inappropriate,

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scientifically speaking.

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It's not professional. You are just

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expressing your opinion

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without checking if it's right.

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And what Galileo taught us is that

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sometimes we have the wrong ideas.

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And the best way to figure out whether we

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are right or wrong is by

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collecting data and evidence.

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And of course, on this subject, the

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public has a lot of opinions and not only

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the public, but people within academia

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have very strong opinions and they're

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often amplifying the importance of us

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saying maybe we are the only intelligent

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species that ever existed since the Big

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Bang 13.8 billion years ago.

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I say that is very unlikely because there

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are tens of billions of stars in the

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Milky Way galaxy alone and a substantial

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fraction of them somewhere between 3

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percent to 100 percent of the sunlight

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stars have a planet the size of the

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Earth, roughly the same separation.

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So it's really arrogant to suggest that

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we are the only species that sent

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equipment to interstellar space,

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especially when you deal

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with SpaceX of Elon Musk.

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You know, there could be space Y, space Z

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of other civilizations

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out there, very likely.

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And one thing to recognize is that we

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invest two trillion dollars a year in

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military budgets worldwide.

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If we were to listen to the words of John

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Lennon in his song saying, imagine all

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the people living in peace and then we

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would have a surplus of two trillion

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dollars a year because we

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don't want to kill each other.

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What would we do with it? One possibility

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is space exploration.

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And I calculated that we could send a

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CubeSat to every star in the Milky Way

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galaxy, tens of billions of them within

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this century if we were to, instead of

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fight each other, explore space.

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So another civilization could have been

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more intelligent than we are. I mean, one

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reason I'm seeking intelligence in our

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space is because I don't

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often find it here on Earth.

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Now, some of these experts that you've

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spoken to or you reference, such as Elon

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or even maybe some of the more

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academically flavored folks that you've

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dealt with, I'm sure

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there's been opposition.

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Do you really think that they go to those

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numbers and statistics that you just

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listed and say, even though I recognize

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these numbers are so large and the

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possibility of us being alone would make

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that such a small probability?

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Do you think they truly look at that

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objectively when they decide not to look

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at this topic scientifically or do you

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think there's

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something else stopping them?

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Well, there are several reasons why

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people in academia or the public would

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00:18:44,125 --> 00:18:48,000
avoid seeking the evidence. One is the

278
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,791
best way for us to be the most

279
00:18:50,791 --> 00:18:51,375
intelligent in the

280
00:18:51,375 --> 00:18:53,291
universe is not to find others.

281
00:18:53,291 --> 00:18:55,083
OK, so then we win the competition,

282
00:18:55,083 --> 00:18:56,666
right, because there is only one.

283
00:18:57,708 --> 00:19:00,583
And we put blinders basically not search

284
00:19:00,583 --> 00:19:02,083
and insist on the fact that there is

285
00:19:02,083 --> 00:19:04,291
nothing out there, that in fact, it's an

286
00:19:04,291 --> 00:19:06,958
extraordinary claim to assume that there

287
00:19:06,958 --> 00:19:08,083
might be something out there.

288
00:19:08,083 --> 00:19:10,541
Then you don't search. And obviously,

289
00:19:10,541 --> 00:19:12,166
this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's

290
00:19:12,166 --> 00:19:14,041
a circular argument and you

291
00:19:14,041 --> 00:19:16,291
will feel very comfortable.

292
00:19:16,291 --> 00:19:19,041
So that serves the ego of many people

293
00:19:19,041 --> 00:19:21,166
that want to believe that they are unique

294
00:19:21,166 --> 00:19:23,041
and special and serve

295
00:19:23,041 --> 00:19:24,708
some cosmic purpose.

296
00:19:25,625 --> 00:19:27,541
But it doesn't change reality just the

297
00:19:27,541 --> 00:19:29,083
way that the earth moved around the sun.

298
00:19:29,083 --> 00:19:31,208
You know, all these civilizations out

299
00:19:31,208 --> 00:19:33,333
there lived and died.

300
00:19:33,333 --> 00:19:35,416
Most of them died by now because, you

301
00:19:35,416 --> 00:19:38,208
know, most stars formed billions of years

302
00:19:38,208 --> 00:19:40,083
before the sun and within a billion

303
00:19:40,083 --> 00:19:41,875
years, the sun will burn up the surface

304
00:19:41,875 --> 00:19:44,625
of the earth, boil off all the oceans.

305
00:19:45,041 --> 00:19:49,583
And so we wouldn't be able to stay here

306
00:19:49,583 --> 00:19:51,708
within a billion years. And that means if

307
00:19:51,708 --> 00:19:55,958
the clock started ticking a billion years

308
00:19:55,958 --> 00:19:57,875
earlier for another civilization, they

309
00:19:57,875 --> 00:20:01,958
had to go on an exodus out

310
00:20:01,958 --> 00:20:03,791
of that planet at some point.

311
00:20:03,791 --> 00:20:07,458
They must have sent signals out, crying

312
00:20:07,458 --> 00:20:10,750
for help before all of them boarded

313
00:20:10,750 --> 00:20:12,458
spaceship, tried to leave the planet.

314
00:20:12,791 --> 00:20:14,708
And we didn't listen because we were not

315
00:20:14,708 --> 00:20:18,458
around a billion years ago. And there

316
00:20:18,458 --> 00:20:20,958
must have been a lot of cries for help

317
00:20:20,958 --> 00:20:22,250
within the Milky Way galaxy.

318
00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:23,791
The point is, if they were sent

319
00:20:23,791 --> 00:20:25,666
electromagnetically, all these radio

320
00:20:25,666 --> 00:20:28,125
signals or whatever they were are now

321
00:20:28,125 --> 00:20:29,916
billions of light years away.

322
00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:32,958
So we can't detect them. And to say we

323
00:20:32,958 --> 00:20:35,291
don't hear anything for 70 years, which

324
00:20:35,291 --> 00:20:37,916
is basically the objective of the SETI

325
00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:40,000
community, to detect any signal

326
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:40,791
electromagnetically

327
00:20:40,791 --> 00:20:41,708
from other civilizations.

328
00:20:42,333 --> 00:20:44,625
You know, that's a very short time and

329
00:20:44,625 --> 00:20:46,000
there aren't many stars

330
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,791
within 70 light years from us.

331
00:20:50,791 --> 00:20:53,208
Signal degradation is a thing too. So the

332
00:20:53,208 --> 00:20:54,416
signals are not going to arrive.

333
00:20:54,416 --> 00:20:56,416
And also it's not, I mean, it's just like

334
00:20:56,416 --> 00:20:59,958
waiting for a phone call at home.

335
00:20:59,958 --> 00:21:02,208
You need the counterpart to be calling

336
00:21:02,208 --> 00:21:04,250
you at the time that you're waiting,

337
00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:06,250
taking into account that the time it

338
00:21:06,250 --> 00:21:08,416
takes the signal to arrive to you.

339
00:21:09,291 --> 00:21:13,250
And it may not be the case. However, if

340
00:21:13,250 --> 00:21:18,000
you are searching your mailbox for any

341
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,750
packages that may have arrived, those

342
00:21:20,750 --> 00:21:22,416
packages may still be there

343
00:21:22,416 --> 00:21:24,958
even if the sender is dead.

344
00:21:24,958 --> 00:21:27,125
And the important thing to keep in mind

345
00:21:27,125 --> 00:21:29,833
is chemical rockets of the type that we

346
00:21:29,833 --> 00:21:34,000
are using move at a speed that is 10

347
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,708
times smaller than the escape speed from the Milky Way galaxy.

348
00:21:38,541 --> 00:21:41,333
So they cannot escape. They basically

349
00:21:41,333 --> 00:21:43,583
move at the characteristic speed of stars

350
00:21:43,583 --> 00:21:46,375
within the disk of the Milky Way galaxy.

351
00:21:46,375 --> 00:21:49,166
And they're still around. So it's just

352
00:21:49,166 --> 00:21:51,333
like plastic in the

353
00:21:51,333 --> 00:21:53,750
ocean. It keeps accumulating.

354
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:56,958
And by 2050, there will be more mass in

355
00:21:56,958 --> 00:21:59,583
plastic in the oceans than the mass there

356
00:21:59,583 --> 00:22:02,500
is in fish, which raises the possibility

357
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:03,583
that we might eat

358
00:22:03,583 --> 00:22:03,708
plastic instead of fish.

359
00:22:04,541 --> 00:22:05,875
I think we're probably a little bit. Or

360
00:22:05,875 --> 00:22:08,333
plastic inside fish. But the point is it

361
00:22:08,333 --> 00:22:10,500
keeps accumulating over time because

362
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:12,125
unless we clean it up.

363
00:22:12,125 --> 00:22:14,125
But interstellar space is not being

364
00:22:14,125 --> 00:22:17,583
cleaned up as far as I know. And so these

365
00:22:17,583 --> 00:22:19,416
probes may be out there.

366
00:22:19,416 --> 00:22:23,208
And Elon sent a Tesla into space. Just

367
00:22:23,208 --> 00:22:26,250
think of how many Elon-like entrepreneurs

368
00:22:26,250 --> 00:22:28,791
there might be on exoplanets, might have

369
00:22:28,791 --> 00:22:30,541
been over the past billions of years,

370
00:22:30,541 --> 00:22:32,166
that send not only

371
00:22:32,166 --> 00:22:32,708
cars, but small probes.

372
00:22:33,708 --> 00:22:38,041
And just to give you another sort of

373
00:22:38,041 --> 00:22:41,500
context, our telescopes and instruments

374
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:46,416
were able to detect objects the size of a

375
00:22:46,416 --> 00:22:49,250
football field within the orbit of the

376
00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:52,333
Earth around the sun just over the past

377
00:22:52,333 --> 00:22:53,708
decade, only over the past decade.

378
00:22:54,541 --> 00:22:57,083
So Enrico Fermi could not have asked

379
00:22:57,083 --> 00:22:58,875
where is everybody because he couldn't

380
00:22:58,875 --> 00:23:01,666
have detected those probes back 70 years

381
00:23:01,666 --> 00:23:04,208
ago or 60 years ago.

382
00:23:04,208 --> 00:23:05,750
The point is only over the past decade we

383
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:08,333
had a survey of the sky because Congress

384
00:23:08,333 --> 00:23:15,000
in 2005 basically told NASA to find 90

385
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,750
percent of all the objects bigger than a

386
00:23:16,750 --> 00:23:20,083
football field, 140 meters, that may come

387
00:23:20,083 --> 00:23:22,458
close to Earth because they pose a risk.

388
00:23:23,208 --> 00:23:27,041
We know that the dinosaurs were killed by

389
00:23:27,041 --> 00:23:30,750
a rock the size of Manhattan Island. And

390
00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:33,583
here we're talking about the size that is

391
00:23:33,583 --> 00:23:35,750
about 100 times smaller.

392
00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:39,083
But nevertheless, we want to find even

393
00:23:39,083 --> 00:23:43,375
those so that we don't incur the damage

394
00:23:43,375 --> 00:23:47,125
to our cities, to precious strategic

395
00:23:47,125 --> 00:23:47,708
locations and so forth.

396
00:23:48,375 --> 00:23:52,333
And so as a result of that, a survey

397
00:23:52,333 --> 00:23:56,916
telescope named Panstas was established

398
00:23:56,916 --> 00:24:01,250
in Hawaii and in 2017, October 2017, they

399
00:24:01,250 --> 00:24:03,458
detected the near Earth object.

400
00:24:03,458 --> 00:24:05,500
They labeled it the near Earth object.

401
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:07,291
That's why they looked at it because it

402
00:24:07,291 --> 00:24:09,041
came close within a sixth of

403
00:24:09,041 --> 00:24:10,375
the Earth's sun separation.

404
00:24:10,375 --> 00:24:12,708
And they realized it's moving too fast.

405
00:24:12,708 --> 00:24:14,708
So it came from outside the solar system.

406
00:24:15,166 --> 00:24:17,041
And then a couple of years later,

407
00:24:17,041 --> 00:24:19,208
together with my student Amir Siraj, we

408
00:24:19,208 --> 00:24:21,125
realized that in fact there were two

409
00:24:21,125 --> 00:24:22,625
other interstellar

410
00:24:22,625 --> 00:24:26,291
objects that were detected.

411
00:24:26,291 --> 00:24:30,125
One in January 2014 and the second in

412
00:24:30,125 --> 00:24:33,958
March 2017, seven months before the

413
00:24:33,958 --> 00:24:36,708
Panstas object that is called Omuamua.

414
00:24:37,083 --> 00:24:39,166
And these interstellar objects were much

415
00:24:39,166 --> 00:24:42,000
smaller, about 100 times smaller, the

416
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,166
size of a person roughly.

417
00:24:44,166 --> 00:24:45,416
Smaller than Omuamua?

418
00:24:45,416 --> 00:24:49,083
Yeah. And they were discovered not from

419
00:24:49,083 --> 00:24:50,125
the reflection of

420
00:24:50,125 --> 00:24:52,791
sunlight the way Omuamua was.

421
00:24:52,791 --> 00:24:55,458
You can't see objects much smaller than

422
00:24:55,458 --> 00:24:58,666
Omuamua with the Panstas telescope within

423
00:24:58,666 --> 00:25:00,583
the orbit of the Earth around the sun.

424
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:02,750
These objects were discovered, the

425
00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:04,041
meteors, as a result of

426
00:25:04,041 --> 00:25:06,708
them bumping into the Earth.

427
00:25:06,708 --> 00:25:09,791
So they collided with the Earth and burnt

428
00:25:09,791 --> 00:25:10,958
up in the Earth's

429
00:25:10,958 --> 00:25:13,791
atmosphere, created a fireball.

430
00:25:13,791 --> 00:25:16,375
One of them released a few percent of the

431
00:25:16,375 --> 00:25:18,250
energy output of the Hiroshima atomic

432
00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:20,000
bomb that was the smaller among them,

433
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,250
half a meter in size, over

434
00:25:22,250 --> 00:25:23,708
the Pacific Ocean in 2014.

435
00:25:24,125 --> 00:25:26,333
And the second one released as much as

436
00:25:26,333 --> 00:25:29,125
the Hiroshima atomic bomb, it was about a

437
00:25:29,125 --> 00:25:32,125
meter in size, twice as large, which

438
00:25:32,125 --> 00:25:35,291
means eight times the mass.

439
00:25:35,291 --> 00:25:42,208
So altogether we have the first three

440
00:25:42,208 --> 00:25:45,166
interstellar objects and each of them

441
00:25:45,166 --> 00:25:47,875
looked different than the space rocks

442
00:25:47,875 --> 00:25:49,041
that we had seen before

443
00:25:49,041 --> 00:25:49,708
from the solar system.

444
00:25:49,958 --> 00:25:52,500
Were the smaller ones of more unique

445
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:53,875
shape elongated, similar

446
00:25:53,875 --> 00:25:55,458
to Omuamua or were they?

447
00:25:55,458 --> 00:25:57,750
We couldn't tell the shape because they

448
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:59,750
exploded in the Earth's atmosphere. All

449
00:25:59,750 --> 00:26:00,833
you could see is the fireball.

450
00:26:00,833 --> 00:26:02,791
That's how the US government sensors

451
00:26:02,791 --> 00:26:05,583
detected them. And nobody looked back to

452
00:26:05,583 --> 00:26:07,416
realize that they were moving too fast to

453
00:26:07,416 --> 00:26:08,375
be bound to the sun.

454
00:26:08,375 --> 00:26:09,916
The way to figure out an interstellar

455
00:26:09,916 --> 00:26:12,291
object is that outside the solar system,

456
00:26:12,291 --> 00:26:15,041
it was moving towards the solar system at

457
00:26:15,041 --> 00:26:17,000
some speed and then it gained more speed

458
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:17,708
as it approached the sun.

459
00:26:18,208 --> 00:26:21,166
So usually near the Earth, it's moving

460
00:26:21,166 --> 00:26:22,916
faster than all the rocks

461
00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:24,833
that are bound to the sun.

462
00:26:24,833 --> 00:26:26,625
And if you measure the speed, you can

463
00:26:26,625 --> 00:26:28,083
tell whether it came from outside the

464
00:26:28,083 --> 00:26:29,583
solar system or not.

465
00:26:29,583 --> 00:26:32,750
And so these meteors we figured out. In

466
00:26:32,750 --> 00:26:35,583
fact, the first one was moving at 60

467
00:26:35,583 --> 00:26:38,000
kilometers per second outside the solar

468
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,916
system towards the sun.

469
00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:42,291
And that's faster than 95 percent of all

470
00:26:42,291 --> 00:26:43,958
the stars in the vicinity of the sun. So

471
00:26:43,958 --> 00:26:44,708
it was moving really fast.

472
00:26:45,583 --> 00:26:47,458
And an interesting possibility is that

473
00:26:47,458 --> 00:26:48,541
maybe it was a spacecraft,

474
00:26:48,541 --> 00:26:51,291
who knows, that was propelled.

475
00:26:51,291 --> 00:26:53,500
And the reason I say that is because the

476
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:55,916
data that the government released allowed

477
00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:58,833
us to infer the material strength of this

478
00:26:58,833 --> 00:27:01,958
meteor, which was tougher than all other

479
00:27:01,958 --> 00:27:04,958
meteors ever recorded in the catalog that

480
00:27:04,958 --> 00:27:07,291
NASA compiled, 272 of

481
00:27:07,291 --> 00:27:08,708
them over the past decades.

482
00:27:09,708 --> 00:27:12,750
So why would the first interstellar

483
00:27:12,750 --> 00:27:15,458
meteor be at least 10 times tougher than

484
00:27:15,458 --> 00:27:20,541
the next in line from all the space rocks

485
00:27:20,541 --> 00:27:22,958
that belong to the solar system?

486
00:27:22,958 --> 00:27:25,041
So there are two possibilities. Either it

487
00:27:25,041 --> 00:27:27,750
came from some system that is very

488
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:28,583
different than the

489
00:27:28,583 --> 00:27:29,708
planetary system that we live in.

490
00:27:30,791 --> 00:27:33,708
For example, an exploding star or a

491
00:27:33,708 --> 00:27:36,125
collision of two neutron stars, some

492
00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:37,208
other environment that

493
00:27:37,208 --> 00:27:41,375
makes very tough objects.

494
00:27:41,375 --> 00:27:44,166
Or it was artificial in origin. It was

495
00:27:44,166 --> 00:27:48,791
made of some alloy, like stainless steel.

496
00:27:48,791 --> 00:27:51,458
And we are going to find out. That's the

497
00:27:51,458 --> 00:27:52,416
amazing thing. We can

498
00:27:52,416 --> 00:27:52,708
follow the scientific method.

499
00:27:53,416 --> 00:27:56,208
It's not a matter of speculation because

500
00:27:56,208 --> 00:27:59,750
we are planning to go in summer 2023 to

501
00:27:59,750 --> 00:28:02,250
the Pacific Ocean and look for the

502
00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:04,375
fragments, the relics of this first

503
00:28:04,375 --> 00:28:06,000
interstellar meteor.

504
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,791
And we will analyze their composition so

505
00:28:08,791 --> 00:28:11,583
we can tell if it's natural or

506
00:28:11,583 --> 00:28:12,416
artificial, depending on

507
00:28:12,416 --> 00:28:15,208
what elements made this meteor.

508
00:28:15,208 --> 00:28:17,708
But what I'm trying to say is this was

509
00:28:17,708 --> 00:28:19,708
unusual, an outlier, an anomalous object.

510
00:28:20,458 --> 00:28:22,916
And it was the first one. And then the

511
00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:25,500
second one was another meteor.

512
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:29,625
And it also had a material strength

513
00:28:29,625 --> 00:28:32,083
higher than all the rest of the meteors

514
00:28:32,083 --> 00:28:33,333
in the NASA catalog.

515
00:28:33,333 --> 00:28:36,000
So we now have two meteors from

516
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,291
interstellar space that

517
00:28:37,291 --> 00:28:38,791
appear to be very different.

518
00:28:38,791 --> 00:28:41,416
The chance for that happening out of the

519
00:28:41,416 --> 00:28:45,333
distribution of material strengths of the

520
00:28:45,333 --> 00:28:47,500
space rocks in the solar system is less

521
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:48,708
than one part in 10,000.

522
00:28:50,416 --> 00:28:53,708
So that's the first two objects. And then

523
00:28:53,708 --> 00:28:57,833
later, Oumuamua, the object from 2017,

524
00:28:57,833 --> 00:29:01,083
appeared to be most likely flat based on

525
00:29:01,083 --> 00:29:02,291
the reflection of sunlight.

526
00:29:02,291 --> 00:29:04,833
Again, we don't have an image of it. And

527
00:29:04,833 --> 00:29:08,041
it was pushed away from the sun by some

528
00:29:08,041 --> 00:29:11,500
mysterious non-gravitational force.

529
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:15,875
And there was no cometary evaporation

530
00:29:15,875 --> 00:29:17,041
apparent from it. So the

531
00:29:17,041 --> 00:29:17,708
question is what pushed it?

532
00:29:18,166 --> 00:29:20,833
And I suggested it might have been just

533
00:29:20,833 --> 00:29:24,583
thin. And then the sunlight bouncing off

534
00:29:24,583 --> 00:29:26,875
this object would have pushed it.

535
00:29:26,875 --> 00:29:29,083
And of course, nature doesn't make very

536
00:29:29,083 --> 00:29:31,583
thin objects, like less than a millimeter

537
00:29:31,583 --> 00:29:34,500
in thickness, which is what you need in

538
00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:37,458
order to give the push that was observed.

539
00:29:37,458 --> 00:29:40,666
So I said, well, maybe it is a very thin

540
00:29:40,666 --> 00:29:41,708
object produced artificially.

541
00:29:43,541 --> 00:29:45,791
And recently I wrote a paper suggesting a

542
00:29:45,791 --> 00:29:48,208
specific scenario for that. Freeman

543
00:29:48,208 --> 00:29:51,791
Dyson, about six years ago, suggested

544
00:29:51,791 --> 00:29:53,750
that perhaps very advanced civilizations

545
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:57,125
may build what is now called the Dyson

546
00:29:57,125 --> 00:30:01,500
sphere, basically a mega

547
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:02,708
structure made of tiles.

548
00:30:03,458 --> 00:30:06,750
And the simplest configuration,

549
00:30:06,750 --> 00:30:09,375
engineering-wise, would be to have tiles

550
00:30:09,375 --> 00:30:13,083
that are like light sails.

551
00:30:13,083 --> 00:30:15,416
Basically, the radiation pressure from

552
00:30:15,416 --> 00:30:18,333
the star is balancing gravity. So they

553
00:30:18,333 --> 00:30:20,083
just hover above the star and you put

554
00:30:20,083 --> 00:30:22,666
lots of these tiles, just like kites.

555
00:30:22,666 --> 00:30:26,000
They float, hover above the star, and you

556
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,291
basically cover the entire star, let's

557
00:30:29,291 --> 00:30:30,750
say, at the separation of the

558
00:30:30,750 --> 00:30:31,708
Earth from the star, roughly.

559
00:30:32,541 --> 00:30:34,625
And then you can harvest all the energy

560
00:30:34,625 --> 00:30:37,250
output. It's clean energy, except when we

561
00:30:37,250 --> 00:30:38,500
talk about clean energy, we are talking

562
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:40,583
about the energy intercepting the Earth.

563
00:30:40,583 --> 00:30:42,166
And here it's the entire sphere

564
00:30:42,166 --> 00:30:43,958
surrounding the star. So Freeman Dyson

565
00:30:43,958 --> 00:30:44,916
said that's a very good

566
00:30:44,916 --> 00:30:48,541
way to get a lot of energy.

567
00:30:48,541 --> 00:30:51,791
And perhaps some civilizations do that.

568
00:30:51,791 --> 00:30:56,541
And if any of them does that, after a

569
00:30:56,541 --> 00:30:58,916
while, you know, the star will evolve and

570
00:30:58,916 --> 00:31:00,708
could break this Dyson sphere,

571
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:03,791
either because it becomes brighter, so it

572
00:31:03,791 --> 00:31:05,333
basically pushes those

573
00:31:05,333 --> 00:31:07,916
tiles away very easily.

574
00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:10,250
I mean, they will just fly out because

575
00:31:10,250 --> 00:31:13,083
they were very barely bound to the star.

576
00:31:13,083 --> 00:31:13,958
They were not even bound.

577
00:31:13,958 --> 00:31:15,500
They were just hovering.

578
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:17,000
And now if the star gets brighter, they

579
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,458
will just be pushed out. Or you can have

580
00:31:20,458 --> 00:31:21,708
asteroids breaking that mega structure.

581
00:31:22,666 --> 00:31:25,541
At any event, what you would get as a

582
00:31:25,541 --> 00:31:28,875
result of that is lots of small fragments

583
00:31:28,875 --> 00:31:30,625
that are thin, filling

584
00:31:30,625 --> 00:31:32,125
up interstellar space.

585
00:31:32,125 --> 00:31:34,916
And perhaps a mua mua was a piece of a

586
00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:36,208
broken Dyson sphere.

587
00:31:36,208 --> 00:31:37,750
That's one possibility.

588
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:39,750
It could be just space trash, like a

589
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:41,916
layer from a bigger object, whatever it

590
00:31:41,916 --> 00:31:43,708
is. I argued maybe it's artificial.

591
00:31:44,458 --> 00:31:48,666
And just this suggestion got, I mean,

592
00:31:48,666 --> 00:31:52,375
people very emotional about it. I should

593
00:31:52,375 --> 00:31:53,833
say that when the paper was

594
00:31:53,833 --> 00:31:55,000
submitted for publication,

595
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,291
it was accepted within a few days. And

596
00:31:57,291 --> 00:31:59,291
the referee was very positive about it.

597
00:31:59,291 --> 00:32:01,708
And at that time, most astronomers

598
00:32:01,708 --> 00:32:02,833
talking about mua mua,

599
00:32:02,833 --> 00:32:05,458
this object, were saying, "It's really

600
00:32:05,458 --> 00:32:07,791
weird. I wonder what it is."

601
00:32:07,791 --> 00:32:10,666
Was there any hesitation in publishing

602
00:32:10,666 --> 00:32:11,708
that idea, that concept?

603
00:32:12,250 --> 00:32:14,250
No, I didn't have. I'll tell you why,

604
00:32:14,250 --> 00:32:17,791
because prior to that, I worked on the

605
00:32:17,791 --> 00:32:18,583
nature of dark matter.

606
00:32:18,583 --> 00:32:20,666
I worked on the first stars when nobody

607
00:32:20,666 --> 00:32:22,541
was working on that. And I

608
00:32:22,541 --> 00:32:24,166
wrote two textbooks about it.

609
00:32:24,166 --> 00:32:27,833
And now it's the most celebrated frontier

610
00:32:27,833 --> 00:32:29,000
because of the Webb

611
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,166
telescope observing the first star.

612
00:32:31,166 --> 00:32:33,291
So I basically established the

613
00:32:33,291 --> 00:32:37,166
theoretical foundation to what we expect

614
00:32:37,166 --> 00:32:38,083
the first galaxies

615
00:32:38,083 --> 00:32:38,708
and stars to look like.

616
00:32:39,458 --> 00:32:42,541
And I wrote two textbooks about it. And

617
00:32:42,541 --> 00:32:43,708
nobody was interested at

618
00:32:43,708 --> 00:32:45,583
the time in this subject.

619
00:32:45,583 --> 00:32:49,333
I had a graduate student and at the PhD

620
00:32:49,333 --> 00:32:52,458
thesis defense, one of the reviewers

621
00:32:52,458 --> 00:32:55,083
said, "Well, but this

622
00:32:55,083 --> 00:32:56,291
will never be observed.

623
00:32:56,291 --> 00:32:58,916
This is how do you know that what you're

624
00:32:58,916 --> 00:33:00,875
working on is at all relevant to the

625
00:33:00,875 --> 00:33:01,708
future of astronomy?"

626
00:33:03,083 --> 00:33:04,958
So, you know, it taught me a lesson not

627
00:33:04,958 --> 00:33:07,125
to listen to what people say when you're

628
00:33:07,125 --> 00:33:09,333
pioneering a new frontier.

629
00:33:09,333 --> 00:33:13,333
But I also worked on black holes. And I

630
00:33:13,333 --> 00:33:15,041
was the founding director of the Black

631
00:33:15,041 --> 00:33:16,541
Hole Initiative at Harvard,

632
00:33:16,541 --> 00:33:19,458
the only center worldwide that brings

633
00:33:19,458 --> 00:33:22,250
together physicists, mathematicians,

634
00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:23,166
philosophers, and

635
00:33:23,166 --> 00:33:24,708
astronomers to study black holes.

636
00:33:25,125 --> 00:33:27,250
And Stephen Hawking came to exactly this

637
00:33:27,250 --> 00:33:29,583
room. He was sitting where you are back

638
00:33:29,583 --> 00:33:35,375
in April 2016 at the Passover Center.

639
00:33:35,375 --> 00:33:38,666
And he ate everything that my wife served

640
00:33:38,666 --> 00:33:41,958
to him. And he gave a speech actually

641
00:33:41,958 --> 00:33:43,666
just from the location where you are.

642
00:33:44,291 --> 00:33:47,750
At any event, I worked on black holes.

643
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:51,833
But I also worked on dark matter because

644
00:33:51,833 --> 00:33:54,666
most of the matter in the universe is a

645
00:33:54,666 --> 00:33:56,958
substance that is not the same as the

646
00:33:56,958 --> 00:33:58,791
ordinary matter that we are made of or

647
00:33:58,791 --> 00:34:00,541
that we see in the solar system.

648
00:34:01,291 --> 00:34:04,625
And back in 1933, it was a revolutionary

649
00:34:04,625 --> 00:34:08,291
idea that was proposed by Fritz Zwicky

650
00:34:08,291 --> 00:34:11,625
from Caltech. And people didn't really

651
00:34:11,625 --> 00:34:14,708
follow him for about 40 years until it

652
00:34:14,708 --> 00:34:15,916
became more popular.

653
00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:17,625
And now if you ask young people, they'll

654
00:34:17,625 --> 00:34:19,458
say, "Of course, there is a huge amount

655
00:34:19,458 --> 00:34:21,666
of evidence that dark matter exists, but

656
00:34:21,666 --> 00:34:23,500
we don't know what it is."

657
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:23,708
Sounds familiar.

658
00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:28,250
Yeah, it's an example of having something

659
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:31,166
that we don't find in the solar system.

660
00:34:31,166 --> 00:34:33,958
So just by studying your backyard, you

661
00:34:33,958 --> 00:34:36,541
will never get across the dark matter.

662
00:34:36,541 --> 00:34:38,875
Well, you could get across it if you knew

663
00:34:38,875 --> 00:34:41,541
from other data that it might exist,

664
00:34:41,541 --> 00:34:43,666
which we know from studying the universe

665
00:34:43,666 --> 00:34:46,708
or the galaxy on the very large scales.

666
00:34:47,958 --> 00:34:49,916
But the point is, nobody thought that

667
00:34:49,916 --> 00:34:52,541
there is a substance different from what

668
00:34:52,541 --> 00:34:55,208
the solar system is made of. In fact,

669
00:34:55,208 --> 00:34:57,208
even the sun was thought to be made of

670
00:34:57,208 --> 00:34:59,708
the same substance as the Earth.

671
00:35:01,208 --> 00:35:03,916
The first PhD in astronomy at Harvard

672
00:35:03,916 --> 00:35:05,750
University was by Cecilia Payne

673
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:08,375
Koppaschkin, who applied quantum

674
00:35:08,375 --> 00:35:11,791
mechanics that was about 100 years ago to

675
00:35:11,791 --> 00:35:15,750
the sun and interpreted the spectrum of

676
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:20,208
the sun to argue that the surface of the

677
00:35:20,208 --> 00:35:21,666
sun is made mostly of hydrogen.

678
00:35:22,416 --> 00:35:25,291
And when she defended Henry Norris

679
00:35:25,291 --> 00:35:26,958
Russell, who was the director of the

680
00:35:26,958 --> 00:35:28,625
Princeton University Observatory, the

681
00:35:28,625 --> 00:35:32,708
most distinguished stellar astronomer

682
00:35:32,708 --> 00:35:35,500
worldwide, said to her,

683
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,041
"You should take it out of your thesis.

684
00:35:38,041 --> 00:35:40,416
It makes all of us know that the sun is

685
00:35:40,416 --> 00:35:42,708
made of the same stuff as the Earth."

686
00:35:43,666 --> 00:35:45,583
And, you know, she was just at the

687
00:35:45,583 --> 00:35:47,833
beginning of her career. She took it out.

688
00:35:47,833 --> 00:35:49,791
And then he worked on the problem for

689
00:35:49,791 --> 00:35:53,416
four years and wrote a long paper saying,

690
00:35:53,416 --> 00:35:56,291
in fact, she was right, that the sun is

691
00:35:56,291 --> 00:35:58,541
made mostly of hydrogen. And now we know

692
00:35:58,541 --> 00:36:00,375
it's not only the sun, but most of the

693
00:36:00,375 --> 00:36:01,291
ordinary matter in the

694
00:36:01,291 --> 00:36:01,708
universe is hydrogen.

695
00:36:02,291 --> 00:36:07,166
That was a major discovery. And so even

696
00:36:07,166 --> 00:36:09,875
that was a revelation 100 years ago, but

697
00:36:09,875 --> 00:36:12,916
then about a decade after Cecilia found

698
00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:15,666
that the sun is made of hydrogen, Fritz

699
00:36:15,666 --> 00:36:19,000
Rickey realized that, in fact, the most

700
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,250
abundant substance in the universe, in

701
00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:24,708
the mass budget, is actually unknown.

702
00:36:25,375 --> 00:36:26,916
It's dark matter. It doesn't interact

703
00:36:26,916 --> 00:36:30,416
with light. So I say, what is the lesson

704
00:36:30,416 --> 00:36:32,625
we learned from that? That what we find

705
00:36:32,625 --> 00:36:34,083
in our backyard does not

706
00:36:34,083 --> 00:36:34,833
represent the universe.

707
00:36:34,833 --> 00:36:38,166
That's really easy to understand. But

708
00:36:38,166 --> 00:36:41,583
just a week ago, Elon Musk talked on TV

709
00:36:41,583 --> 00:36:44,708
as if he didn't see evidence for aliens.

710
00:36:45,041 --> 00:36:48,875
And I say, well, obviously, people before

711
00:36:48,875 --> 00:36:51,125
Swiggy didn't see evidence for dark

712
00:36:51,125 --> 00:36:55,166
matter. We know it exists. And before

713
00:36:55,166 --> 00:36:58,500
that, people didn't realize that a decade

714
00:36:58,500 --> 00:36:59,958
before that the sun is

715
00:36:59,958 --> 00:37:00,833
made mostly of hydrogen.

716
00:37:00,833 --> 00:37:03,291
In fact, most of the ordinary matter in

717
00:37:03,291 --> 00:37:06,208
the universe is hydrogen. So you have to

718
00:37:06,208 --> 00:37:08,958
be humble. You can't just argue that

719
00:37:08,958 --> 00:37:11,375
based on your experience, you can

720
00:37:11,375 --> 00:37:12,708
extrapolate to the entire universe.

721
00:37:13,708 --> 00:37:15,666
And being modest and humble, learning

722
00:37:15,666 --> 00:37:18,166
from experience is really the big lesson

723
00:37:18,166 --> 00:37:20,291
from the days of Galileo that we are

724
00:37:20,291 --> 00:37:23,125
applying to the Galileo project.

725
00:37:23,125 --> 00:37:27,041
And we're trying to understand those

726
00:37:27,041 --> 00:37:28,833
interstellar objects, trying to find the

727
00:37:28,833 --> 00:37:31,500
next Oumuamua, for example. There will be

728
00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:34,875
a telescope, a survey telescope in Chile

729
00:37:34,875 --> 00:37:36,500
called the Vera Rubin Observatory,

730
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:38,708
starting operations in 2024.

731
00:37:39,416 --> 00:37:42,375
And we're planning to use the pipeline of

732
00:37:42,375 --> 00:37:44,125
data, which will become public because

733
00:37:44,125 --> 00:37:45,166
it's funded by the

734
00:37:45,166 --> 00:37:47,041
National Science Foundation.

735
00:37:47,041 --> 00:37:51,708
We plan to analyze this data and look for

736
00:37:51,708 --> 00:37:55,916
additional weird objects out there. And

737
00:37:55,916 --> 00:37:57,875
it's just like, you know, we went on a

738
00:37:57,875 --> 00:37:59,500
date with Oumuamua. We liked it.

739
00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:01,500
It looked weird and interesting. But by

740
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:03,875
the time we realized that it's so

741
00:38:03,875 --> 00:38:05,541
interesting, it left through the front

742
00:38:05,541 --> 00:38:06,708
door and we couldn't really follow it.

743
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:09,541
And so then what do you do? I mean, you

744
00:38:09,541 --> 00:38:12,166
can obsess with it, argue about it. And

745
00:38:12,166 --> 00:38:14,250
in fact, just a few weeks ago, there was

746
00:38:14,250 --> 00:38:16,958
another paper about Oumuamua in nature

747
00:38:16,958 --> 00:38:18,416
that we showed is wrong

748
00:38:18,416 --> 00:38:20,583
and we can talk about it.

749
00:38:20,583 --> 00:38:24,083
But also there was a few days ago a paper

750
00:38:24,083 --> 00:38:25,500
analyzing the non-gravitational

751
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:27,666
acceleration and confirming it again. So

752
00:38:27,666 --> 00:38:28,708
people keep coming back to it.

753
00:38:28,958 --> 00:38:31,666
But my point is, let's look for more of

754
00:38:31,666 --> 00:38:33,416
the same, you know, there must be more

755
00:38:33,416 --> 00:38:35,791
objects like it. And then we can get much

756
00:38:35,791 --> 00:38:37,458
better data with the Webb telescope

757
00:38:37,458 --> 00:38:39,041
because the Webb telescope will look at

758
00:38:39,041 --> 00:38:41,291
this object from a different direction

759
00:38:41,291 --> 00:38:42,583
than the Earth-based

760
00:38:42,583 --> 00:38:43,875
telescopes are looking at it.

761
00:38:43,875 --> 00:38:45,458
And then you can pinpoint the

762
00:38:45,458 --> 00:38:47,166
three-dimensional trajectory of the

763
00:38:47,166 --> 00:38:50,250
object very precisely through parlax,

764
00:38:50,250 --> 00:38:52,083
basically triangulation.

765
00:38:52,083 --> 00:38:54,666
And that would allow us to tell whether

766
00:38:54,666 --> 00:38:57,250
there is any propulsion to an object that

767
00:38:57,250 --> 00:38:57,708
comes from interstellar space.

768
00:38:58,416 --> 00:38:59,500
And so this activity is

769
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:00,750
under the Galileo project?

770
00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:02,208
This is under the Galileo project. So

771
00:39:02,208 --> 00:39:05,666
that's one of the missions to find more

772
00:39:05,666 --> 00:39:07,958
objects like Oumuamua or like the

773
00:39:07,958 --> 00:39:10,166
interstellar meteors and

774
00:39:10,166 --> 00:39:12,041
study them in great detail.

775
00:39:12,041 --> 00:39:15,166
And one interesting thing I realized this

776
00:39:15,166 --> 00:39:18,541
morning, I have some notes about it, is

777
00:39:18,541 --> 00:39:21,500
that the Webb telescope can detect the

778
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:24,583
infrared emission from an object as a

779
00:39:24,583 --> 00:39:25,708
result of the illumination by sunlight.

780
00:39:26,791 --> 00:39:30,708
So the object gets warmed and then emits.

781
00:39:30,708 --> 00:39:32,541
And within the orbit of the Earth around

782
00:39:32,541 --> 00:39:34,291
the sun, the characteristic temperature

783
00:39:34,291 --> 00:39:35,083
is the same that we

784
00:39:35,083 --> 00:39:37,500
have on Earth, 300 degrees.

785
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:42,000
And the peak of the emission is at about

786
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,208
20 micron wavelength, which is being used

787
00:39:46,208 --> 00:39:48,291
by these goggles that the military

788
00:39:48,291 --> 00:39:50,791
personnel use at nighttime to see,

789
00:39:50,791 --> 00:39:52,708
because humans have the same body

790
00:39:52,708 --> 00:39:54,708
temperature roughly above absolute zero,

791
00:39:55,375 --> 00:39:59,125
as the Earth and as an object illuminated

792
00:39:59,125 --> 00:40:01,041
by the sun. So the Webb

793
00:40:01,041 --> 00:40:02,625
telescope could see that radiation.

794
00:40:02,625 --> 00:40:05,291
Now, what will it tell us? If we see the

795
00:40:05,291 --> 00:40:08,083
heat emitted from the object and we also

796
00:40:08,083 --> 00:40:11,458
see the reflected sunlight, then we can

797
00:40:11,458 --> 00:40:15,541
figure out the albedo of the object.

798
00:40:15,541 --> 00:40:17,666
Because if we know the position of it,

799
00:40:17,666 --> 00:40:19,416
then we know what should be the surface

800
00:40:19,416 --> 00:40:19,708
temperature of the object.

801
00:40:21,333 --> 00:40:25,083
And we can disentangle the area of the

802
00:40:25,083 --> 00:40:27,875
object and the reflectivity of the object

803
00:40:27,875 --> 00:40:29,541
by observing the emission from

804
00:40:29,541 --> 00:40:31,833
it and the reflection from it.

805
00:40:31,833 --> 00:40:35,083
So altogether, we can even map the object

806
00:40:35,083 --> 00:40:38,958
in three dimensions if it rotates,

807
00:40:38,958 --> 00:40:41,500
because the area keeps changing.

808
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:42,708
And what we didn't know about the

809
00:40:42,708 --> 00:40:44,750
Ummuamua is what is the albedo, what is

810
00:40:44,750 --> 00:40:45,791
the reflectance. So we

811
00:40:45,791 --> 00:40:46,708
didn't know precisely the area.

812
00:40:48,166 --> 00:40:51,583
And also we observed it only from the

813
00:40:51,583 --> 00:40:52,708
Earth. And now we will

814
00:40:52,708 --> 00:40:53,750
have the Webb telescope.

815
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:56,083
So altogether, we will have a wealth of

816
00:40:56,083 --> 00:40:57,125
data on the next

817
00:40:57,125 --> 00:40:59,791
Ummuamua that we can analyze.

818
00:40:59,791 --> 00:41:01,458
And that's one of the missions of the

819
00:41:01,458 --> 00:41:04,125
Galois project. If we look.

820
00:41:04,125 --> 00:41:06,375
Well, I will definitely look.

821
00:41:06,375 --> 00:41:09,041
I will not miss a second

822
00:41:09,041 --> 00:41:10,708
before we start collecting data.

823
00:41:11,083 --> 00:41:13,958
It sounds like you are trying to link and

824
00:41:13,958 --> 00:41:15,833
you know, true to your statement about

825
00:41:15,833 --> 00:41:17,791
how Elon Musk is apparently approaching

826
00:41:17,791 --> 00:41:18,666
the problem by looking

827
00:41:18,666 --> 00:41:19,750
at a very small data set.

828
00:41:19,750 --> 00:41:21,208
You want to link what's happening, it

829
00:41:21,208 --> 00:41:22,875
sounds like, in our atmosphere

830
00:41:22,875 --> 00:41:24,458
potentially to what's

831
00:41:24,458 --> 00:41:25,833
happening outside of our atmosphere.

832
00:41:25,833 --> 00:41:29,041
Here is an interesting anecdote. The

833
00:41:29,041 --> 00:41:33,416
second interstellar meteor had the same

834
00:41:33,416 --> 00:41:37,041
speed as Ummuamua had at large distances

835
00:41:37,041 --> 00:41:38,708
relative to the Sun.

836
00:41:39,333 --> 00:41:42,291
And also the same distance of closest

837
00:41:42,291 --> 00:41:44,125
approach. Interesting.

838
00:41:44,125 --> 00:41:48,125
So I thought maybe it was a probe

839
00:41:48,125 --> 00:41:50,333
released from Ummuamua.

840
00:41:50,333 --> 00:41:52,208
But then I checked and it came from a

841
00:41:52,208 --> 00:41:54,083
different inclination, so a different

842
00:41:54,083 --> 00:41:55,458
direction in the sky.

843
00:41:55,458 --> 00:41:57,583
So it wasn't related, but it gave me the

844
00:41:57,583 --> 00:42:01,083
idea of a mothership releasing probes.

845
00:42:01,083 --> 00:42:03,416
And this is something I discussed in my

846
00:42:03,416 --> 00:42:04,708
book, "Exterrestrial".

847
00:42:06,208 --> 00:42:10,666
Which I wrote about Ummuamua in January

848
00:42:10,666 --> 00:42:14,333
2021. It had 28 editions in many

849
00:42:14,333 --> 00:42:16,041
languages and became

850
00:42:16,041 --> 00:42:17,375
bestseller in many countries.

851
00:42:17,375 --> 00:42:21,291
And I had about 2500 interviews about

852
00:42:21,291 --> 00:42:23,708
this subject since then.

853
00:42:24,875 --> 00:42:28,250
And just a week ago there were 20

854
00:42:28,250 --> 00:42:29,916
filmmakers and producers that approached

855
00:42:29,916 --> 00:42:34,708
me to make a documentary film about the

856
00:42:34,708 --> 00:42:36,916
research that I'm doing.

857
00:42:36,916 --> 00:42:41,333
And also a playwright that sent me an

858
00:42:41,333 --> 00:42:42,916
email with the title

859
00:42:42,916 --> 00:42:45,541
"Avilobone Broadway".

860
00:42:45,541 --> 00:42:48,791
So I thought it was an April Fool's Day

861
00:42:48,791 --> 00:42:49,916
joke because it came a

862
00:42:49,916 --> 00:42:51,708
few days before April 1st.

863
00:42:53,041 --> 00:42:56,041
But then he attached to the email some

864
00:42:56,041 --> 00:42:58,583
photos of him with Barbara

865
00:42:58,583 --> 00:43:00,208
Streisand and with Dick Van Dyke.

866
00:43:00,208 --> 00:43:02,333
And they had the serial number from the

867
00:43:02,333 --> 00:43:04,375
cell phone that he's using.

868
00:43:04,375 --> 00:43:06,875
And so it looked authentic. And by now he

869
00:43:06,875 --> 00:43:08,083
already wrote several

870
00:43:08,083 --> 00:43:11,791
tens of pages for display.

871
00:43:11,791 --> 00:43:13,666
Because I gave him the green light.

872
00:43:13,666 --> 00:43:17,125
Yesterday I met with our second postdoc,

873
00:43:17,125 --> 00:43:18,083
postdoctoral fellow

874
00:43:18,083 --> 00:43:18,708
at the Galileo Project.

875
00:43:19,583 --> 00:43:21,791
So I received funding from three

876
00:43:21,791 --> 00:43:25,791
postdoctoral fellows in one year.

877
00:43:25,791 --> 00:43:27,333
Expansion.

878
00:43:27,333 --> 00:43:31,958
Yeah, so each of these postdocs comes for

879
00:43:31,958 --> 00:43:34,458
three years. And it's about them.

880
00:43:34,458 --> 00:43:38,083
All together it's equivalent to a

881
00:43:38,083 --> 00:43:39,208
donation of a million

882
00:43:39,208 --> 00:43:41,958
dollars, the three of them.

883
00:43:41,958 --> 00:43:42,708
Just for three years.

884
00:43:43,583 --> 00:43:47,250
But the one that arrived yesterday, Laura

885
00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:49,916
Doming from Stanford University, you

886
00:43:49,916 --> 00:43:54,291
know, she was considered the brightest

887
00:43:54,291 --> 00:43:56,541
PhD student for many

888
00:43:56,541 --> 00:43:59,750
years by her mentors.

889
00:43:59,750 --> 00:44:03,208
And then when I called her to offer her

890
00:44:03,208 --> 00:44:04,750
the postdoctoral fellowship under the

891
00:44:04,750 --> 00:44:07,750
Galileo Project, she was so thrilled and

892
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:09,500
said, "I can't believe

893
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:10,708
that I hear your voice."

894
00:44:11,458 --> 00:44:13,000
And then I asked her

895
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,541
yesterday, "Why is it?"

896
00:44:16,541 --> 00:44:18,750
And she said, "Well, since a very young

897
00:44:18,750 --> 00:44:22,125
age, I was following those reports about

898
00:44:22,125 --> 00:44:22,958
unidentified aerial

899
00:44:22,958 --> 00:44:25,416
phenomena, about aliens, about..."

900
00:44:25,416 --> 00:44:27,875
And I always wanted to be part of a

901
00:44:27,875 --> 00:44:30,791
scientific project that approaches this

902
00:44:30,791 --> 00:44:32,708
subject using the scientific method,

903
00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:35,833
meaning collecting data with instruments

904
00:44:35,833 --> 00:44:38,333
we understand, we calibrate under our

905
00:44:38,333 --> 00:44:40,833
control, and analyze it using the most

906
00:44:40,833 --> 00:44:42,458
sophisticated computer algorithms,

907
00:44:42,458 --> 00:44:44,000
which is pretty much what the Galileo

908
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,458
Project is doing. We can get into that.

909
00:44:46,458 --> 00:44:50,666
But she said, "When you called me, that

910
00:44:50,666 --> 00:44:53,458
was a lifelong dream come true."

911
00:44:53,458 --> 00:44:56,916
And I've never heard that. I was the

912
00:44:56,916 --> 00:44:58,958
director of the Institute for Theory and

913
00:44:58,958 --> 00:45:00,125
Computation for about

914
00:45:00,125 --> 00:45:01,708
two decades now at Harvard.

915
00:45:02,625 --> 00:45:05,500
And I made offers to about a hundred

916
00:45:05,500 --> 00:45:06,708
postdoctoral fellows

917
00:45:06,708 --> 00:45:09,375
during these 20 years.

918
00:45:09,375 --> 00:45:11,958
And none of these people who worked in

919
00:45:11,958 --> 00:45:14,166
theoretical astrophysics told me it was

920
00:45:14,166 --> 00:45:17,583
my life-long dream to

921
00:45:17,583 --> 00:45:19,083
work on black holes,

922
00:45:19,083 --> 00:45:21,458
or to work on the first star, or to work

923
00:45:21,458 --> 00:45:22,708
on galaxy formation.

924
00:45:23,666 --> 00:45:27,708
But she said that. And then when I

925
00:45:27,708 --> 00:45:30,625
mentioned it to the first postdoc that we

926
00:45:30,625 --> 00:45:32,375
accepted, Richard Clouette from the

927
00:45:32,375 --> 00:45:34,291
University of Cambridge in England,

928
00:45:34,291 --> 00:45:35,125
he said, "For me, it

929
00:45:35,125 --> 00:45:37,291
was exactly the same."

930
00:45:37,291 --> 00:45:39,958
And they both had to compromise because

931
00:45:39,958 --> 00:45:41,791
their academic environment did not

932
00:45:41,791 --> 00:45:44,291
provide opportunities to work on this

933
00:45:44,291 --> 00:45:45,791
subject, scientifically speaking.

934
00:45:45,791 --> 00:45:46,791
And the Galileo Project

935
00:45:46,791 --> 00:45:47,708
is really the first one.

936
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,583
Now, many people say there are many other

937
00:45:50,583 --> 00:45:52,166
organizations dealing with

938
00:45:52,166 --> 00:45:53,583
unidentified objects near Earth.

939
00:45:53,583 --> 00:45:56,708
And there is a clear difference. The

940
00:45:56,708 --> 00:45:58,708
Galileo Project is the only one dedicated

941
00:45:58,708 --> 00:46:00,833
to the collection of new data

942
00:46:00,833 --> 00:46:02,458
using the scientific method.

943
00:46:02,458 --> 00:46:05,583
All of these other organizations are

944
00:46:05,583 --> 00:46:09,916
either seeking old data or trying to push

945
00:46:09,916 --> 00:46:12,291
the government to declassify some

946
00:46:12,291 --> 00:46:14,708
existing data that the government has.

947
00:46:15,041 --> 00:46:16,083
And the problem with that

948
00:46:16,083 --> 00:46:18,291
is that it was all anecdotal.

949
00:46:18,291 --> 00:46:21,250
Either private citizens or the government

950
00:46:21,250 --> 00:46:23,125
were looking at something else and

951
00:46:23,125 --> 00:46:24,500
suddenly saw something

952
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:26,041
that they didn't expect.

953
00:46:26,041 --> 00:46:29,291
So it's limited in the amount of

954
00:46:29,291 --> 00:46:31,666
information we can milk out of it because

955
00:46:31,666 --> 00:46:33,375
it was not anticipated.

956
00:46:33,375 --> 00:46:36,208
And also the sensors that the government

957
00:46:36,208 --> 00:46:40,833
uses or the public uses are not of the

958
00:46:40,833 --> 00:46:41,708
highest quality that we have today.

959
00:46:42,333 --> 00:46:45,041
So instead of once again, instead of

960
00:46:45,041 --> 00:46:47,083
obsessing with the past, I'm a very young

961
00:46:47,083 --> 00:46:48,458
person in my attitude.

962
00:46:48,458 --> 00:46:50,833
Let's just collect new data. And within a

963
00:46:50,833 --> 00:46:53,416
few months, the Galileo Project

964
00:46:53,416 --> 00:46:55,708
Observatory that is now functioning will

965
00:46:55,708 --> 00:46:58,333
collect more data than was ever collected

966
00:46:58,333 --> 00:47:00,666
by all the reports on unidentified area

967
00:47:00,666 --> 00:47:02,791
phenomena from one location at Harvard

968
00:47:02,791 --> 00:47:04,708
University, not far from where I live.

969
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,833
And if you just wait a year, it will be

970
00:47:09,833 --> 00:47:12,375
10 times more than ever collected.

971
00:47:12,375 --> 00:47:14,958
So why should we worry about the

972
00:47:14,958 --> 00:47:16,875
government releasing what they have?

973
00:47:16,875 --> 00:47:18,666
Why should we force them when the data

974
00:47:18,666 --> 00:47:21,666
was collected by classified sensors?

975
00:47:21,666 --> 00:47:23,875
That's why the data is classified. It's

976
00:47:23,875 --> 00:47:26,000
not so much because of the content.

977
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,458
To me, it's intriguing that the

978
00:47:27,458 --> 00:47:30,500
government is talking about it because it

979
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:31,333
says there is something

980
00:47:31,333 --> 00:47:31,708
they don't understand.

981
00:47:32,333 --> 00:47:34,291
But the government is not a scientific

982
00:47:34,291 --> 00:47:34,875
organization, so we

983
00:47:34,875 --> 00:47:37,333
shouldn't ask them to do our job.

984
00:47:37,333 --> 00:47:38,916
And on the other hand, you have the

985
00:47:38,916 --> 00:47:41,041
scientific community, which I have a lot

986
00:47:41,041 --> 00:47:43,166
to say about, which is

987
00:47:43,166 --> 00:47:44,916
reluctant to touch it.

988
00:47:44,916 --> 00:47:47,916
Why? Because it's a risky subject and

989
00:47:47,916 --> 00:47:52,500
most scientists prefer to get honors and

990
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:55,166
awards in a safe way without taking

991
00:47:55,166 --> 00:47:56,666
risks, which is completely opposite to

992
00:47:56,666 --> 00:47:59,708
the spirit of blue sky research.

993
00:48:00,125 --> 00:48:02,291
The only reason there is tenure in

994
00:48:02,291 --> 00:48:04,500
academia is to allow people to have job

995
00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:06,458
security and to take risks.

996
00:48:06,458 --> 00:48:08,666
But the strange thing is that almost all

997
00:48:08,666 --> 00:48:12,083
of them, after they get tenure, start to

998
00:48:12,083 --> 00:48:13,500
worry about their

999
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:16,666
image, stature, prestige,

1000
00:48:16,666 --> 00:48:18,958
in order to get awards recognition from

1001
00:48:18,958 --> 00:48:19,791
their peers, and

1002
00:48:19,791 --> 00:48:20,708
therefore they don't take risks.

1003
00:48:20,958 --> 00:48:24,750
And they also don't want others to take

1004
00:48:24,750 --> 00:48:26,666
risks because if they are experts, if

1005
00:48:26,666 --> 00:48:29,708
they studied rocks in the sky for several

1006
00:48:29,708 --> 00:48:32,083
decades and they are the expert on

1007
00:48:32,083 --> 00:48:33,625
asteroids or comets,

1008
00:48:33,625 --> 00:48:36,208
they would insist that everything we see

1009
00:48:36,208 --> 00:48:38,916
in the sky is an asteroid or a comet.

1010
00:48:38,916 --> 00:48:42,125
And the most extreme example is actually

1011
00:48:42,125 --> 00:48:44,666
a young person who wrote a

1012
00:48:44,666 --> 00:48:46,041
review paper about Umoa Umoa.

1013
00:48:47,208 --> 00:48:49,208
And he said to me in an email, he said,

1014
00:48:49,208 --> 00:48:51,583
"I just finished an extensive review

1015
00:48:51,583 --> 00:48:53,958
about the comet Umoa Umoa."

1016
00:48:53,958 --> 00:48:55,916
So I wrote back and said, "What do you

1017
00:48:55,916 --> 00:48:58,666
mean by the comet Umoa Umoa? We both know

1018
00:48:58,666 --> 00:49:01,000
there was no cometary tail, there was no

1019
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,333
coma, there was no

1020
00:49:02,333 --> 00:49:03,833
evidence for evaporation."

1021
00:49:03,833 --> 00:49:06,875
And he said, "Well, I have this theory

1022
00:49:06,875 --> 00:49:10,458
that when we looked at the object, it

1023
00:49:10,458 --> 00:49:12,041
didn't have a cometary tail, when we

1024
00:49:12,041 --> 00:49:13,916
looked away from it,

1025
00:49:13,916 --> 00:49:15,625
it had a cometary tail."

1026
00:49:16,083 --> 00:49:18,500
- Quantum comet. - Yeah, and I said,

1027
00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:20,125
"That's just like going to the zoo

1028
00:49:20,125 --> 00:49:21,583
looking at an elephant and claiming it's

1029
00:49:21,583 --> 00:49:23,166
a zebra that shows its

1030
00:49:23,166 --> 00:49:24,833
stripes when you look away."

1031
00:49:24,833 --> 00:49:27,125
That is not the way the mainstream

1032
00:49:27,125 --> 00:49:29,000
science should deal

1033
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,083
with an anomalous object.

1034
00:49:31,083 --> 00:49:33,416
And the other thing is, I feel like the

1035
00:49:33,416 --> 00:49:37,500
kid in Hans Christian Andersen's tale,

1036
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:39,666
who said the emperor has no clothes, Umoa

1037
00:49:39,666 --> 00:49:41,333
Umoa is the emperor, the

1038
00:49:41,333 --> 00:49:41,708
clothes are the cometary tail.

1039
00:49:42,375 --> 00:49:44,333
I just say what I see, you know, I don't

1040
00:49:44,333 --> 00:49:45,791
see a cometary tail. I say

1041
00:49:45,791 --> 00:49:47,208
the emperor has no clothes.

1042
00:49:47,208 --> 00:49:49,125
But everyone around me says, "Oh, no, no,

1043
00:49:49,125 --> 00:49:51,833
no, no, there are clothes, they're just

1044
00:49:51,833 --> 00:49:53,291
invisible and they're beautiful."

1045
00:49:53,291 --> 00:49:55,625
Like the most recent paper from a few

1046
00:49:55,625 --> 00:49:58,458
weeks ago in Nature was about this comet

1047
00:49:58,458 --> 00:50:02,666
being made of water that broke into

1048
00:50:02,666 --> 00:50:04,916
hydrogen and oxygen, and the hydrogen is

1049
00:50:04,916 --> 00:50:05,916
transparent when it evaporates.

1050
00:50:05,916 --> 00:50:08,041
And we actually showed that they made a

1051
00:50:08,041 --> 00:50:08,958
mistake in the energy

1052
00:50:08,958 --> 00:50:09,708
balance of the surface.

1053
00:50:10,458 --> 00:50:13,166
But at any event, people keep insisting

1054
00:50:13,166 --> 00:50:15,125
that indeed the emperor has beautiful

1055
00:50:15,125 --> 00:50:17,041
clothes, but we can't see them.

1056
00:50:17,041 --> 00:50:20,458
So how do you... Well, it sounds like

1057
00:50:20,458 --> 00:50:22,125
there's a younger generation that's more

1058
00:50:22,125 --> 00:50:23,958
eager to jump into those conversations

1059
00:50:23,958 --> 00:50:25,500
that might be more challenging.

1060
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:27,041
And I know there's, you know, as you

1061
00:50:27,041 --> 00:50:29,083
alluded to, the problem with the older

1062
00:50:29,083 --> 00:50:31,416
generation not wanting to experiment with

1063
00:50:31,416 --> 00:50:33,750
maybe some new ideas that might cause the

1064
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:34,708
base of their knowledge to crumble.

1065
00:50:35,541 --> 00:50:37,875
I get that. How does this make you feel

1066
00:50:37,875 --> 00:50:39,708
with this new generation coming in? And

1067
00:50:39,708 --> 00:50:41,791
how can we really tap into that

1068
00:50:41,791 --> 00:50:44,750
eagerness, excitement, that energy?

1069
00:50:44,750 --> 00:50:48,208
Well, so the younger people also make a

1070
00:50:48,208 --> 00:50:49,666
calculation because they need to think

1071
00:50:49,666 --> 00:50:51,208
about their future jobs.

1072
00:50:51,208 --> 00:50:53,666
And the calculation is when they see the

1073
00:50:53,666 --> 00:50:55,708
pushback that I encounter, and frankly, I

1074
00:50:55,708 --> 00:50:57,541
don't care about it, I don't care how

1075
00:50:57,541 --> 00:50:59,333
many likes I get, because I

1076
00:50:59,333 --> 00:50:59,708
just want to do the right thing.

1077
00:51:00,375 --> 00:51:02,791
I want to advance the knowledge of

1078
00:51:02,791 --> 00:51:05,166
humanity in the context of whether we are

1079
00:51:05,166 --> 00:51:06,500
the smartest kid in

1080
00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:08,041
our cosmic neighborhood.

1081
00:51:08,041 --> 00:51:10,458
And if not, let's learn from them. That's

1082
00:51:10,458 --> 00:51:12,250
my objective. There is a lot

1083
00:51:12,250 --> 00:51:14,291
for humanity to benefit from.

1084
00:51:14,291 --> 00:51:16,583
And this is discussed in my next book,

1085
00:51:16,583 --> 00:51:19,333
actually, that comes out in August 2023.

1086
00:51:19,333 --> 00:51:21,916
It's called Interstellar.

1087
00:51:21,916 --> 00:51:24,708
And it discusses the implications for humanity.

1088
00:51:25,875 --> 00:51:32,000
So you see, when you meet a partner, it

1089
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,208
affects you. And in my view, it would be

1090
00:51:36,208 --> 00:51:40,916
a great benefit to humanity to recognize

1091
00:51:40,916 --> 00:51:43,375
that there might have been a smarter kid

1092
00:51:43,375 --> 00:51:45,708
on our blog because we can learn from it.

1093
00:51:47,125 --> 00:51:49,166
And moreover, it will change our

1094
00:51:49,166 --> 00:51:51,291
aspirations to space, will give us a

1095
00:51:51,291 --> 00:51:52,458
better understanding about

1096
00:51:52,458 --> 00:51:53,833
our place in the universe.

1097
00:51:53,833 --> 00:51:55,833
And, you know, Steven Weinberg, the Nobel

1098
00:51:55,833 --> 00:51:59,291
laureate in physics, said towards the end

1099
00:51:59,291 --> 00:52:01,291
of his book, famous book, the

1100
00:52:01,291 --> 00:52:03,541
first three minutes, he said,

1101
00:52:03,541 --> 00:52:07,416
"The more we understand, the more the

1102
00:52:07,416 --> 00:52:10,333
universe appears comprehensible to us,

1103
00:52:10,333 --> 00:52:12,625
the more pointless it looks."

1104
00:52:12,958 --> 00:52:14,708
And I say it looks pointless to

1105
00:52:14,708 --> 00:52:18,875
cosmologists because they focused for

1106
00:52:18,875 --> 00:52:22,583
decades on lifeless entities like

1107
00:52:22,583 --> 00:52:23,833
elementary particles

1108
00:52:23,833 --> 00:52:25,625
or stars or galaxies.

1109
00:52:25,625 --> 00:52:27,083
These are entities that

1110
00:52:27,083 --> 00:52:29,708
have no life. They are dead.

1111
00:52:29,708 --> 00:52:33,208
And from our private experience, when we

1112
00:52:33,208 --> 00:52:36,000
find a partner, it changes the meaning

1113
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,083
that we assign to our existence.

1114
00:52:38,916 --> 00:52:41,166
In the same way, I believe that when

1115
00:52:41,166 --> 00:52:43,833
humanity finds a partner, an interstellar

1116
00:52:43,833 --> 00:52:46,708
partner, it will change everything.

1117
00:52:46,708 --> 00:52:50,208
It will make the universe have some

1118
00:52:50,208 --> 00:52:53,500
meaning because they may have answers to

1119
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:55,166
questions that we didn't figure the

1120
00:52:55,166 --> 00:52:57,875
answers to, but we could also interact

1121
00:52:57,875 --> 00:52:59,791
with them in a way that we

1122
00:52:59,791 --> 00:53:01,708
can learn about our future.

1123
00:53:01,833 --> 00:53:03,625
Because if they already went through part

1124
00:53:03,625 --> 00:53:06,583
of our technological future, we will see

1125
00:53:06,583 --> 00:53:08,958
technologies that we've never imagined.

1126
00:53:08,958 --> 00:53:11,791
What about our past? Do you have any

1127
00:53:11,791 --> 00:53:16,291
thoughts on the concept of panspermia?

1128
00:53:16,291 --> 00:53:20,166
Yeah, so there are two types of ways by

1129
00:53:20,166 --> 00:53:21,625
which life can move

1130
00:53:21,625 --> 00:53:24,500
from one planet to another.

1131
00:53:25,833 --> 00:53:30,375
In fact, Mars cooled before Earth and had

1132
00:53:30,375 --> 00:53:33,166
liquid water and an atmosphere on it for

1133
00:53:33,166 --> 00:53:38,208
the first half of its lifespan.

1134
00:53:38,208 --> 00:53:40,916
And so only about two billion years ago,

1135
00:53:40,916 --> 00:53:45,166
it lost its atmosphere and the liquid

1136
00:53:45,166 --> 00:53:46,875
water evaporated because liquid water

1137
00:53:46,875 --> 00:53:49,583
needs an atmospheric pressure to stay.

1138
00:53:50,375 --> 00:53:53,791
And so it's possible that life started on

1139
00:53:53,791 --> 00:53:55,833
Mars before it started on Earth.

1140
00:53:55,833 --> 00:53:57,416
And in fact, it's also possible we know

1141
00:53:57,416 --> 00:53:59,041
there are rocks from

1142
00:53:59,041 --> 00:54:01,083
Mars that arrived to Earth.

1143
00:54:01,083 --> 00:54:03,125
One of them was not heated to

1144
00:54:03,125 --> 00:54:06,583
more than 40 degrees Celsius.

1145
00:54:06,583 --> 00:54:11,500
So you could have tiny microbes as tiny

1146
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:14,291
astronauts in the interior of a rock that

1147
00:54:14,291 --> 00:54:15,125
would survive the

1148
00:54:15,125 --> 00:54:16,583
journey from Mars to Earth.

1149
00:54:16,958 --> 00:54:19,041
And perhaps we are all Martians. And when

1150
00:54:19,041 --> 00:54:21,000
Elon Musk says he wants to die on Mars,

1151
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,083
it's just like wanting to go back to your

1152
00:54:24,083 --> 00:54:26,750
childhood home and die there.

1153
00:54:26,750 --> 00:54:29,291
So we don't know whether life started on

1154
00:54:29,291 --> 00:54:30,500
Mars and was delivered to

1155
00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:32,625
Earth or started on Earth.

1156
00:54:32,625 --> 00:54:35,125
And it's quite plausible that rocks made

1157
00:54:35,125 --> 00:54:37,416
it with the kind of life.

1158
00:54:37,416 --> 00:54:40,666
And one way to find out the history of

1159
00:54:40,666 --> 00:54:42,833
Earth would be to find

1160
00:54:42,833 --> 00:54:44,708
evidence for life on Mars.

1161
00:54:44,791 --> 00:54:48,125
It's not easy, but there are some

1162
00:54:48,125 --> 00:54:49,875
attempts to do that.

1163
00:54:49,875 --> 00:54:52,750
And if we do find life on Mars, the

1164
00:54:52,750 --> 00:54:54,833
question is, is it identical to life on

1165
00:54:54,833 --> 00:54:58,000
Earth in terms of the DNA structure?

1166
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,958
And if it is, there is a good chance that

1167
00:54:59,958 --> 00:55:01,208
it was transferred

1168
00:55:01,208 --> 00:55:02,625
between the two planets.

1169
00:55:02,625 --> 00:55:04,291
And that's called panspermia.

1170
00:55:04,291 --> 00:55:06,875
I'm personally interested in something

1171
00:55:06,875 --> 00:55:09,416
that was never done, which is there are

1172
00:55:09,416 --> 00:55:12,041
these lava tubes on Mars, which are

1173
00:55:12,041 --> 00:55:13,708
similar to those that you find in Hawaii.

1174
00:55:14,541 --> 00:55:16,833
Basically, when there is volcanic

1175
00:55:16,833 --> 00:55:19,166
activity, lava flows and

1176
00:55:19,166 --> 00:55:22,166
then it cools at the top first,

1177
00:55:22,166 --> 00:55:25,250
and you create sort of a crust that

1178
00:55:25,250 --> 00:55:26,208
serves as a ceiling.

1179
00:55:26,208 --> 00:55:29,083
And then the lava continues to flow under

1180
00:55:29,083 --> 00:55:30,583
that ceiling and you end

1181
00:55:30,583 --> 00:55:33,291
up with a cave, a tunnel.

1182
00:55:33,291 --> 00:55:34,708
And you see that in

1183
00:55:34,708 --> 00:55:38,208
Hawaii, beautiful lava tubes.

1184
00:55:38,208 --> 00:55:40,708
But the moon and Mars also have that.

1185
00:55:41,666 --> 00:55:45,416
And what I'm curious about is, you know,

1186
00:55:45,416 --> 00:55:48,333
we started in caves to protect ourselves

1187
00:55:48,333 --> 00:55:50,166
from harsh weather

1188
00:55:50,166 --> 00:55:51,166
conditions and so forth.

1189
00:55:51,166 --> 00:55:54,416
And I'm curious to go into one of these

1190
00:55:54,416 --> 00:55:58,291
lava tubes on Mars with a flashlight and

1191
00:55:58,291 --> 00:56:01,833
check without any paintings on the walls

1192
00:56:01,833 --> 00:56:04,541
of those lava tubes from some beings that

1193
00:56:04,541 --> 00:56:05,833
used to exist there.

1194
00:56:05,833 --> 00:56:08,208
I'd go with you. I'll hold the light.

1195
00:56:09,416 --> 00:56:11,583
I mean, we can send a drone just not to

1196
00:56:11,583 --> 00:56:13,958
risk our lives, but it's quite possible

1197
00:56:13,958 --> 00:56:17,708
that there were creatures on Mars.

1198
00:56:17,708 --> 00:56:20,666
And one thing I calculated is over a

1199
00:56:20,666 --> 00:56:23,125
billion years, you know, the two billion

1200
00:56:23,125 --> 00:56:26,958
years since Mars lost its atmosphere and

1201
00:56:26,958 --> 00:56:30,541
liquid water for every

1202
00:56:30,541 --> 00:56:31,708
square kilometer on Mars,

1203
00:56:32,791 --> 00:56:37,416
there were asteroid impacts that released

1204
00:56:37,416 --> 00:56:40,583
energy equivalent to 20 Hiroshima atomic

1205
00:56:40,583 --> 00:56:42,916
bombs for every square kilometer.

1206
00:56:42,916 --> 00:56:44,791
Just think about it. So much energy

1207
00:56:44,791 --> 00:56:46,875
release. So it's very difficult to find

1208
00:56:46,875 --> 00:56:50,083
on the surface skeletons or

1209
00:56:50,083 --> 00:56:53,625
any anything other than dust.

1210
00:56:53,625 --> 00:56:56,875
But in the caves, you might still find

1211
00:56:56,875 --> 00:56:58,500
something. And especially because it's

1212
00:56:58,500 --> 00:56:59,708
protected from cosmic rays.

1213
00:57:00,791 --> 00:57:03,791
By the way, if we ever go there, the

1214
00:57:03,791 --> 00:57:06,833
first place to go is to these lava tubes,

1215
00:57:06,833 --> 00:57:09,166
not to be on the surface because

1216
00:57:09,166 --> 00:57:11,666
bombardment by cosmic rays can harm the

1217
00:57:11,666 --> 00:57:13,458
human body and basically make it

1218
00:57:13,458 --> 00:57:17,583
unlivable within a few years.

1219
00:57:17,583 --> 00:57:19,541
So those problems we haven't quite solved

1220
00:57:19,541 --> 00:57:21,291
yet. We're kind of looking past in some

1221
00:57:21,291 --> 00:57:22,666
ways when we talk about Mars.

1222
00:57:22,916 --> 00:57:25,125
And we started in caves. And if we go to

1223
00:57:25,125 --> 00:57:26,625
Mars, we'll end up in caves. That's what

1224
00:57:26,625 --> 00:57:28,333
I'm saying. The humans go

1225
00:57:28,333 --> 00:57:30,541
back to their roots, so to speak.

1226
00:57:30,541 --> 00:57:34,833
But altogether, you know, panspermia in

1227
00:57:34,833 --> 00:57:37,125
the natural ways, transfer of rocks

1228
00:57:37,125 --> 00:57:38,958
between two neighboring planets.

1229
00:57:38,958 --> 00:57:41,791
And there are other planetary systems.

1230
00:57:41,791 --> 00:57:46,250
For example, Trappist 1 is an example at

1231
00:57:46,250 --> 00:57:48,875
about several tenths of light years away

1232
00:57:48,875 --> 00:57:50,791
from us that has seven

1233
00:57:50,791 --> 00:57:51,708
planets packed in a very,

1234
00:57:52,333 --> 00:57:54,500
in very close proximity. So if one of

1235
00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:57,000
them had life, it's quite possible that

1236
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,250
rocks were liberated from that planet.

1237
00:57:59,250 --> 00:58:00,875
These rocks are liberated when an

1238
00:58:00,875 --> 00:58:03,625
asteroid impacts the surface and lifts

1239
00:58:03,625 --> 00:58:06,125
some surface material and

1240
00:58:06,125 --> 00:58:08,625
it could include microbes.

1241
00:58:08,625 --> 00:58:11,666
So that's natural indirect panspermia.

1242
00:58:11,666 --> 00:58:13,750
But there is also the concept of directed

1243
00:58:13,750 --> 00:58:16,291
panspermia where a civilization decides

1244
00:58:16,291 --> 00:58:20,500
to send probes that would replicate life.

1245
00:58:21,166 --> 00:58:24,333
And the way I think about the future of

1246
00:58:24,333 --> 00:58:29,166
humanity is, well, it involves artificial

1247
00:58:29,166 --> 00:58:30,958
intelligence, AI, because we are already

1248
00:58:30,958 --> 00:58:34,291
at a point where GPT-4 has a hundred

1249
00:58:34,291 --> 00:58:36,250
trillion connections,

1250
00:58:36,250 --> 00:58:39,166
only a factor of six shy of the number of

1251
00:58:39,166 --> 00:58:40,625
synapses in the human

1252
00:58:40,625 --> 00:58:42,500
brain, six hundred trillion.

1253
00:58:42,875 --> 00:58:45,500
So we are getting to the point where the

1254
00:58:45,500 --> 00:58:49,208
complexity of these language learning

1255
00:58:49,208 --> 00:58:53,416
models like GPT-4 are getting to the

1256
00:58:53,416 --> 00:58:54,916
level of complexity of the human brain.

1257
00:58:54,916 --> 00:58:57,291
So we won't fully understand how they

1258
00:58:57,291 --> 00:59:00,583
operate. But the way I see it is as an

1259
00:59:00,583 --> 00:59:02,416
opportunity to send those systems to

1260
00:59:02,416 --> 00:59:04,958
space because they could learn from

1261
00:59:04,958 --> 00:59:07,791
experience and then we can harden them so

1262
00:59:07,791 --> 00:59:08,750
that they don't suffer

1263
00:59:08,750 --> 00:59:10,708
the damage from cosmic rays

1264
00:59:11,291 --> 00:59:14,375
or ultraviolet light or they would not

1265
00:59:14,375 --> 00:59:16,625
mind being dormant for millions of years

1266
00:59:16,625 --> 00:59:20,541
on travel to another planetary system.

1267
00:59:20,541 --> 00:59:22,833
And then once they get there, they could,

1268
00:59:22,833 --> 00:59:25,291
if they have 3D printing capabilities

1269
00:59:25,291 --> 00:59:28,458
with them, they can make the kind of life

1270
00:59:28,458 --> 00:59:29,625
that we have here on Earth.

1271
00:59:29,625 --> 00:59:31,958
So instead of sending passengers like in

1272
00:59:31,958 --> 00:59:34,250
Star Trek, and by the way, just a couple

1273
00:59:34,250 --> 00:59:36,208
of days ago, I sent my wishes, best

1274
00:59:36,208 --> 00:59:39,291
wishes to the producer of Star Trek.

1275
00:59:40,708 --> 00:59:44,375
From 1966, he will turn 100 years old on

1276
00:59:44,375 --> 00:59:47,958
May 1st, 2023. And he responded.

1277
00:59:47,958 --> 00:59:48,666
Wow.

1278
00:59:48,666 --> 00:59:54,416
And I also met a few weeks ago the person

1279
00:59:54,416 --> 00:59:56,791
who wrote the script for Contact.

1280
00:59:56,791 --> 00:59:58,458
Oh, that's one of my favorite ones.

1281
00:59:58,458 --> 01:00:01,791
Jim Hart. And he came to me and said, you

1282
01:00:01,791 --> 01:00:02,958
know, I think of you as

1283
01:00:02,958 --> 01:00:04,416
the successor of Carl Sagan.

1284
01:00:05,791 --> 01:00:08,833
He also said that he believes he spent

1285
01:00:08,833 --> 01:00:10,958
three years with Carl Sagan and his wife,

1286
01:00:10,958 --> 01:00:15,625
Andrea, that the hero in the film Contact

1287
01:00:15,625 --> 01:00:17,333
represents Andrea, he thinks.

1288
01:00:17,333 --> 01:00:19,125
Oh.

1289
01:00:19,125 --> 01:00:22,291
And so it's interesting to see those

1290
01:00:22,291 --> 01:00:24,875
people from the past. And in fact, I'm

1291
01:00:24,875 --> 01:00:29,916
working now with the producer of another

1292
01:00:29,916 --> 01:00:31,875
fantastic film,

1293
01:00:31,875 --> 01:00:32,708
science fiction film Arrival,

1294
01:00:33,875 --> 01:00:36,208
which I like the most, actually, because

1295
01:00:36,208 --> 01:00:40,875
it talks about the challenge of

1296
01:00:40,875 --> 01:00:43,125
communication with something that is

1297
01:00:43,125 --> 01:00:44,625
different than you are.

1298
01:00:44,625 --> 01:00:46,333
That will be the next challenge. You

1299
01:00:46,333 --> 01:00:48,083
know, the first challenge is to find

1300
01:00:48,083 --> 01:00:50,083
something that is not natural to Earth,

1301
01:00:50,083 --> 01:00:53,458
not a bird, not a bug, and

1302
01:00:53,458 --> 01:00:55,708
not also human made like drones,

1303
01:00:56,666 --> 01:00:58,541
balloons of the type that the US

1304
01:00:58,541 --> 01:01:02,250
government shut down, not airplanes. But

1305
01:01:02,250 --> 01:01:04,500
it looks technological and it maneuvers

1306
01:01:04,500 --> 01:01:07,000
in ways that we cannot

1307
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,166
explain using our own technologies.

1308
01:01:09,166 --> 01:01:12,916
So if we find that that will be the first

1309
01:01:12,916 --> 01:01:15,208
revelation, which would be amazing.

1310
01:01:15,208 --> 01:01:17,250
Then the next phase would be more

1311
01:01:17,250 --> 01:01:19,000
challenging. And that would be to figure

1312
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,666
out the intent of such devices, what

1313
01:01:22,666 --> 01:01:23,708
information are they seeking?

1314
01:01:23,791 --> 01:01:26,000
So what do they represent? It's sort of

1315
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,583
like looking at being in a cave.

1316
01:01:29,583 --> 01:01:34,083
I go back to the cave allegory of Plato,

1317
01:01:34,083 --> 01:01:37,083
which was basically dealing with

1318
01:01:37,083 --> 01:01:41,250
prisoners chained to a cave and looking

1319
01:01:41,250 --> 01:01:43,041
at the shadows on the wall in front of

1320
01:01:43,041 --> 01:01:44,708
them from things behind

1321
01:01:44,708 --> 01:01:46,291
them that they cannot see.

1322
01:01:46,791 --> 01:01:50,666
And when we meet devices like AI

1323
01:01:50,666 --> 01:01:54,333
astronauts from other civilizations,

1324
01:01:54,333 --> 01:01:55,291
there would be the

1325
01:01:55,291 --> 01:01:57,625
shadows of the senders.

1326
01:01:57,625 --> 01:01:59,125
There will not be the senders. I don't

1327
01:01:59,125 --> 01:02:01,750
believe we will have an encounter with

1328
01:02:01,750 --> 01:02:03,583
biological creatures because they cannot

1329
01:02:03,583 --> 01:02:04,958
survive the journey over millions of

1330
01:02:04,958 --> 01:02:07,625
years and they need a lot of patience.

1331
01:02:08,291 --> 01:02:09,916
It's much more likely to be a

1332
01:02:09,916 --> 01:02:13,750
technological gadget with AI. And so

1333
01:02:13,750 --> 01:02:16,583
these AI systems, just like we are

1334
01:02:16,583 --> 01:02:20,958
creating AI systems in our image,

1335
01:02:20,958 --> 01:02:22,416
whatever we find from another

1336
01:02:22,416 --> 01:02:24,000
civilization will be in

1337
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:26,125
the image of the senders.

1338
01:02:26,125 --> 01:02:29,333
And just like the prisoners in Plato's

1339
01:02:29,333 --> 01:02:32,375
allegory of the cave, we are chained to

1340
01:02:32,375 --> 01:02:33,916
earth by gravity. Okay,

1341
01:02:33,916 --> 01:02:35,708
so it's a perfect match.

1342
01:02:36,291 --> 01:02:39,583
This is our cave. We are looking at the

1343
01:02:39,583 --> 01:02:43,166
shadows of the senders of those gadgets.

1344
01:02:43,166 --> 01:02:46,500
And the question is, could we figure out

1345
01:02:46,500 --> 01:02:48,750
what the senders were like?

1346
01:02:48,750 --> 01:02:51,083
At the very least, we can learn something

1347
01:02:51,083 --> 01:02:53,458
about our technological future because

1348
01:02:53,458 --> 01:02:55,333
these AI systems will probably be much

1349
01:02:55,333 --> 01:02:56,708
more advanced than ours.

1350
01:02:57,291 --> 01:03:03,291
So you know, Alan Turing about almost 90

1351
01:03:03,291 --> 01:03:07,375
years ago came up with the imitation game

1352
01:03:07,375 --> 01:03:11,208
of the Turing test, figuring out whether

1353
01:03:11,208 --> 01:03:15,958
a machine is a machine or a person based

1354
01:03:15,958 --> 01:03:19,500
on the interactions, the exchange of

1355
01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:20,708
information that you have with it.

1356
01:03:21,541 --> 01:03:25,291
And the way I see the imitation game is

1357
01:03:25,291 --> 01:03:27,541
between our AI systems and

1358
01:03:27,541 --> 01:03:30,291
extraterrestrial AI systems because once

1359
01:03:30,291 --> 01:03:33,791
they come here, the visitors, we will use

1360
01:03:33,791 --> 01:03:35,041
our AI systems to

1361
01:03:35,041 --> 01:03:37,041
interpret their AI systems.

1362
01:03:37,041 --> 01:03:39,666
And in fact, their AI systems might be so

1363
01:03:39,666 --> 01:03:41,500
much more advanced than ours that ours

1364
01:03:41,500 --> 01:03:43,875
would like to imitate them. And that

1365
01:03:43,875 --> 01:03:44,708
would be the imitation game.

1366
01:03:45,916 --> 01:03:48,291
Very interesting. We've talked a little

1367
01:03:48,291 --> 01:03:52,125
bit about, you know, I think how you've

1368
01:03:52,125 --> 01:03:53,666
got to where you are today. And I think I

1369
01:03:53,666 --> 01:03:56,833
see some of the the corollators with your

1370
01:03:56,833 --> 01:03:58,500
past research and how you've kind of

1371
01:03:58,500 --> 01:04:00,250
taken that bold stance on UAP.

1372
01:04:00,250 --> 01:04:02,916
But people are familiar with that, I

1373
01:04:02,916 --> 01:04:06,083
think people might not be as familiar

1374
01:04:06,083 --> 01:04:08,375
with the earlier past and some of your

1375
01:04:08,375 --> 01:04:09,458
earlier experiences.

1376
01:04:10,458 --> 01:04:14,500
So if we could, I'd love to hear as you

1377
01:04:14,500 --> 01:04:16,583
know, I'm a former military pilot and you

1378
01:04:16,583 --> 01:04:18,458
have some very interesting military

1379
01:04:18,458 --> 01:04:20,458
experiences yourself.

1380
01:04:20,458 --> 01:04:22,083
The big question is, how did that really

1381
01:04:22,083 --> 01:04:23,750
lead to you to where you are today? But

1382
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:25,416
first, let's talk a little bit about, you

1383
01:04:25,416 --> 01:04:27,833
know, what you experienced in the

1384
01:04:27,833 --> 01:04:28,625
military when you were in Israel.

1385
01:04:29,625 --> 01:04:32,041
Yeah, I'll be glad to. First, I just

1386
01:04:32,041 --> 01:04:34,625
wanted to mention that the Galileo

1387
01:04:34,625 --> 01:04:39,583
project is trying to figure out the

1388
01:04:39,583 --> 01:04:41,041
nature of the objects that you were

1389
01:04:41,041 --> 01:04:42,125
reporting about when

1390
01:04:42,125 --> 01:04:44,708
you were a fighter pilot.

1391
01:04:45,041 --> 01:04:48,875
And so we have an observatory operating

1392
01:04:48,875 --> 01:04:53,666
at Harvard University 24/7 and basically

1393
01:04:53,666 --> 01:04:56,291
taking a full picture of the sky in the

1394
01:04:56,291 --> 01:04:58,708
infrared, the optical band.

1395
01:04:59,166 --> 01:05:02,958
It has a passive radar system and an

1396
01:05:02,958 --> 01:05:07,750
audio system. And we hope to make

1397
01:05:07,750 --> 01:05:09,583
multiple such sensors such that we can

1398
01:05:09,583 --> 01:05:12,791
triangulate in all of these wave bands

1399
01:05:12,791 --> 01:05:14,208
and find the distance to

1400
01:05:14,208 --> 01:05:16,375
objects because that's crucial.

1401
01:05:17,041 --> 01:05:20,583
And then we are currently planning to

1402
01:05:20,583 --> 01:05:23,708
have copies of this first observatory and

1403
01:05:23,708 --> 01:05:25,458
place them in different geographical

1404
01:05:25,458 --> 01:05:27,958
locations. And the number of copies will

1405
01:05:27,958 --> 01:05:29,583
depend on how much funding we have.

1406
01:05:29,583 --> 01:05:31,875
So currently, I received a few million

1407
01:05:31,875 --> 01:05:34,375
dollars from people who came to my home

1408
01:05:34,375 --> 01:05:37,000
during the pandemic and without any

1409
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,500
fundraising offered to

1410
01:05:39,500 --> 01:05:40,708
support this research.

1411
01:05:41,041 --> 01:05:44,208
And we have about 100 people involved in

1412
01:05:44,208 --> 01:05:46,416
the Galileo project with a thousand

1413
01:05:46,416 --> 01:05:49,333
showing interest and so forth.

1414
01:05:49,333 --> 01:05:54,041
But if we get several tens of millions of

1415
01:05:54,041 --> 01:05:56,291
dollars, that would allow us to build

1416
01:05:56,291 --> 01:05:58,958
tens of copies of our first observatory,

1417
01:05:58,958 --> 01:06:00,541
which is operating already.

1418
01:06:00,541 --> 01:06:02,250
So we know exactly what needs to be done.

1419
01:06:02,250 --> 01:06:04,083
We have the expertise. It took us a year

1420
01:06:04,083 --> 01:06:04,958
and a half to build

1421
01:06:04,958 --> 01:06:06,500
it. A lot of hard work.

1422
01:06:07,166 --> 01:06:09,458
So all we are missing is several tens of

1423
01:06:09,458 --> 01:06:12,625
millions of dollars in order to get to

1424
01:06:12,625 --> 01:06:14,833
the bottom of the nature of those

1425
01:06:14,833 --> 01:06:16,958
unidentified objects, because we

1426
01:06:16,958 --> 01:06:18,416
calculated if we have tens of

1427
01:06:18,416 --> 01:06:20,791
observatories spread over the US or

1428
01:06:20,791 --> 01:06:23,000
elsewhere, we should have enough

1429
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,000
statistics to figure out what these

1430
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,583
anomalous objects in the sky might be.

1431
01:06:29,375 --> 01:06:31,791
And we are also analyzing data from

1432
01:06:31,791 --> 01:06:36,041
satellites of planet labs. And so

1433
01:06:36,041 --> 01:06:39,166
altogether, I'm hopeful that with enough

1434
01:06:39,166 --> 01:06:42,125
funding, within a year or two, we will

1435
01:06:42,125 --> 01:06:45,250
have much more information.

1436
01:06:45,250 --> 01:06:48,958
Now, how did I get to this point? I

1437
01:06:48,958 --> 01:06:51,541
started as a farm boy. You know, I was

1438
01:06:51,541 --> 01:06:53,291
very much connected to nature. I grew up

1439
01:06:53,291 --> 01:06:54,333
on a farm. I used to

1440
01:06:54,333 --> 01:06:55,583
collect eggs every afternoon.

1441
01:06:56,041 --> 01:07:00,541
I had two sisters. And in fact, when

1442
01:07:00,541 --> 01:07:02,666
collecting eggs, they forced me to the

1443
01:07:02,666 --> 01:07:04,458
left lane because they were right handed.

1444
01:07:04,458 --> 01:07:06,125
I was also right handed, but I had to

1445
01:07:06,125 --> 01:07:08,291
collect the eggs with my left hand.

1446
01:07:08,291 --> 01:07:12,750
So I was able to do it both ways. And I

1447
01:07:12,750 --> 01:07:15,625
remember finding the chicks when we got

1448
01:07:15,625 --> 01:07:18,250
them to the farm at night with a

1449
01:07:18,250 --> 01:07:20,583
flashlight looking for them, which is

1450
01:07:20,583 --> 01:07:21,750
similar to going with a

1451
01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:23,708
flashlight on Mars now, I guess.

1452
01:07:24,208 --> 01:07:28,541
But then I used to drive the tractor to

1453
01:07:28,541 --> 01:07:31,083
the hills of the village and read the

1454
01:07:31,083 --> 01:07:32,708
philosophy books because I cared about

1455
01:07:32,708 --> 01:07:35,208
the big picture. That was

1456
01:07:35,208 --> 01:07:35,708
the thing that attracted me.

1457
01:07:36,125 --> 01:07:40,083
I read the books on existentialism,

1458
01:07:40,083 --> 01:07:42,541
mainly by French philosophers like Sartre

1459
01:07:42,541 --> 01:07:46,291
or Camus, and really saw my future in

1460
01:07:46,291 --> 01:07:50,958
philosophy because this was the stage

1461
01:07:50,958 --> 01:07:55,041
where the biggest questions were asked.

1462
01:07:55,041 --> 01:07:56,958
Had you been introduced to mathematics to

1463
01:07:56,958 --> 01:07:57,708
a high degree at that point?

1464
01:07:58,166 --> 01:08:00,375
So I learned mathematics and physics in

1465
01:08:00,375 --> 01:08:02,291
high school, and I was very good at it. I

1466
01:08:02,291 --> 01:08:05,333
was at the top of my class. But what I

1467
01:08:05,333 --> 01:08:07,833
cared about are the big questions.

1468
01:08:07,833 --> 01:08:09,916
And in Israel, you have to serve in the

1469
01:08:09,916 --> 01:08:13,291
military. There is no way out. And

1470
01:08:13,291 --> 01:08:15,083
because I was good in math and physics, I

1471
01:08:15,083 --> 01:08:18,458
was selected to a program that allowed me

1472
01:08:18,458 --> 01:08:23,125
to finish a first degree in physics and

1473
01:08:23,125 --> 01:08:25,708
mathematics for three years.

1474
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:30,375
And then serve five additional years

1475
01:08:30,375 --> 01:08:34,791
developing research projects that are

1476
01:08:34,791 --> 01:08:37,500
useful for the defense of the country.

1477
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:39,916
And to me, that sounded the closest to

1478
01:08:39,916 --> 01:08:41,750
philosophy that I can do rather than run

1479
01:08:41,750 --> 01:08:43,416
in the fields with a machine gun.

1480
01:08:44,333 --> 01:08:47,125
And so I agreed to go there. And in fact,

1481
01:08:47,125 --> 01:08:49,416
this program was very special because we

1482
01:08:49,416 --> 01:08:53,458
went to all the military sections,

1483
01:08:53,458 --> 01:08:56,458
including the Air Force and the Navy.

1484
01:08:56,458 --> 01:09:00,250
And we drove tanks. I parachuted three

1485
01:09:00,250 --> 01:09:02,791
times, jumped from a plane, and it took a

1486
01:09:02,791 --> 01:09:04,458
few minutes. And of course, we knew what

1487
01:09:04,458 --> 01:09:08,541
to do if the parachute doesn't open up.

1488
01:09:08,541 --> 01:09:09,750
That was very important.

1489
01:09:11,333 --> 01:09:16,125
I was very good at sports among the top

1490
01:09:16,125 --> 01:09:18,791
three of a few thousands in my high

1491
01:09:18,791 --> 01:09:21,958
school. And when I was in the military, I

1492
01:09:21,958 --> 01:09:28,041
was offered to join the Delta Force,

1493
01:09:28,041 --> 01:09:32,000
which is a very challenging...

1494
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:32,708
Essentially special operations.

1495
01:09:33,458 --> 01:09:36,625
Special operations in Israel. I declined

1496
01:09:36,625 --> 01:09:39,708
it because I was mostly

1497
01:09:39,708 --> 01:09:42,541
interested in the intellectual work.

1498
01:09:42,541 --> 01:09:44,916
And so what I ended up doing is develop a

1499
01:09:44,916 --> 01:09:50,625
new research project at age 21 and

1500
01:09:50,625 --> 01:09:52,791
proposed it to the Strategic Defense

1501
01:09:52,791 --> 01:09:54,833
Initiative of Ronald Reagan, President

1502
01:09:54,833 --> 01:09:56,708
Reagan, in the mid-1980s.

1503
01:09:57,750 --> 01:10:01,041
In fact, General Abramson, who led that

1504
01:10:01,041 --> 01:10:04,250
program, came to visit Israel. And I

1505
01:10:04,250 --> 01:10:06,000
presented the project to him. In fact, I

1506
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,791
have a photograph of him.

1507
01:10:07,791 --> 01:10:10,916
I don't think it was ever made public.

1508
01:10:10,916 --> 01:10:18,125
That's me here. Sorry, here. And this is

1509
01:10:18,125 --> 01:10:19,916
General Abramson looking at my

1510
01:10:19,916 --> 01:10:20,708
presentation with a slide projector.

1511
01:10:21,416 --> 01:10:24,958
Back then, that was the technology. And

1512
01:10:24,958 --> 01:10:32,750
we presented it to him in February 1986.

1513
01:10:32,750 --> 01:10:36,250
And this was the first international

1514
01:10:36,250 --> 01:10:38,541
project supported by the US.

1515
01:10:38,541 --> 01:10:42,500
And that brought me to Washington, D.C.,

1516
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:45,125
to visit, because I was still in the

1517
01:10:45,125 --> 01:10:45,708
military at the time.

1518
01:10:46,750 --> 01:10:48,583
And in one of the visits, I went to

1519
01:10:48,583 --> 01:10:50,666
Princeton, the Institute for Advanced

1520
01:10:50,666 --> 01:10:52,833
Study, because I was told that's a very

1521
01:10:52,833 --> 01:10:54,375
prestigious place where

1522
01:10:54,375 --> 01:10:57,291
Albert Einstein was faculty.

1523
01:10:57,291 --> 01:11:00,166
And I remember the administrators there

1524
01:11:00,166 --> 01:11:02,083
saying, "We don't allow anyone to come

1525
01:11:02,083 --> 01:11:03,500
here for a visit.

1526
01:11:03,500 --> 01:11:05,625
Please send me your CV."

1527
01:11:05,625 --> 01:11:07,791
And I sent the list of publications. I

1528
01:11:07,791 --> 01:11:11,500
had 11 publications by then. And it was

1529
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:12,125
almost at the

1530
01:11:12,125 --> 01:11:12,708
completion of my PhD thesis.

1531
01:11:13,666 --> 01:11:16,375
And by now, I have more than a thousand.

1532
01:11:16,375 --> 01:11:19,666
But back then, it was just the beginning.

1533
01:11:19,666 --> 01:11:21,916
And she allowed me to come over.

1534
01:11:21,916 --> 01:11:23,708
And she said, "Well, you know, there is

1535
01:11:23,708 --> 01:11:26,125
only one faculty member who has plenty of

1536
01:11:26,125 --> 01:11:27,250
time. All the others are

1537
01:11:27,250 --> 01:11:31,208
busy. His name is Freeman Dyson."

1538
01:11:31,208 --> 01:11:33,916
And so she introduced me to Freeman. And

1539
01:11:33,916 --> 01:11:35,875
Freeman said, "You know, there is a

1540
01:11:35,875 --> 01:11:37,833
faculty person here that

1541
01:11:37,833 --> 01:11:38,708
is married to an Israeli.

1542
01:11:39,750 --> 01:11:42,625
His name is John Bacall. And he loves to

1543
01:11:42,625 --> 01:11:45,416
speak Hebrew. Do you know him?" And I

1544
01:11:45,416 --> 01:11:47,791
said, "No, I've never heard of him,

1545
01:11:47,791 --> 01:11:49,833
because I never worked in astrophysics.

1546
01:11:49,833 --> 01:11:51,916
I worked in plasma physics. That was the

1547
01:11:51,916 --> 01:11:54,541
project. We actually had a

1548
01:11:54,541 --> 01:11:56,541
patent also on the project."

1549
01:11:57,458 --> 01:12:00,833
Anyway, Freeman picked up the phone and

1550
01:12:00,833 --> 01:12:03,000
called John and said, "There is an

1551
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:04,833
Israeli here visiting. Do you have a few

1552
01:12:04,833 --> 01:12:06,375
minutes to meet with him?" And John said,

1553
01:12:06,375 --> 01:12:10,125
"Yeah, why don't we have him for lunch?"

1554
01:12:10,125 --> 01:12:11,916
And then he invited me for a month and

1555
01:12:11,916 --> 01:12:14,125
then ended up offering me a five-year

1556
01:12:14,125 --> 01:12:16,250
fellowship, which was a huge risk from

1557
01:12:16,250 --> 01:12:18,833
his perspective, because I had no track

1558
01:12:18,833 --> 01:12:19,708
record in astrophysics.

1559
01:12:20,291 --> 01:12:22,958
I didn't know how the sun shines. And

1560
01:12:22,958 --> 01:12:25,791
John's main contribution to astronomy was

1561
01:12:25,791 --> 01:12:29,291
to explain how the sun shines and to

1562
01:12:29,291 --> 01:12:31,458
predict how many neutrinos should be

1563
01:12:31,458 --> 01:12:34,416
emitted per unit time from the sun, which

1564
01:12:34,416 --> 01:12:35,500
didn't agree with data.

1565
01:12:35,500 --> 01:12:37,041
And then it was interpreted in terms of

1566
01:12:37,041 --> 01:12:39,166
the mass of the neutrino. But at any

1567
01:12:39,166 --> 01:12:41,541
event, it was very embarrassing for me to

1568
01:12:41,541 --> 01:12:44,000
enter a new field after my military

1569
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,291
service, not knowing anything, because

1570
01:12:46,291 --> 01:12:47,708
Princeton was very competitive.

1571
01:12:48,208 --> 01:12:50,458
And I had to learn the vocabulary from

1572
01:12:50,458 --> 01:12:54,458
scratch. It felt like there is a thing.

1573
01:12:54,458 --> 01:12:56,041
You were learning English at this point

1574
01:12:56,041 --> 01:12:57,250
when you say learning vocabulary?

1575
01:12:57,250 --> 01:12:59,958
I know. Vocabulary of astrophysics. I

1576
01:12:59,958 --> 01:13:02,708
knew English not very well, but I knew

1577
01:13:02,708 --> 01:13:06,291
some of it. Now I'm a writer. But back

1578
01:13:06,291 --> 01:13:08,416
then, it took me a while to start

1579
01:13:08,416 --> 01:13:09,583
dreaming in English. I

1580
01:13:09,583 --> 01:13:11,708
dreamt in Hebrew for a while.

1581
01:13:13,291 --> 01:13:18,333
Anyway, so after five years at Princeton,

1582
01:13:18,333 --> 01:13:20,000
where I learned the vocabulary of

1583
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:22,916
astrophysics, I had basically to invent

1584
01:13:22,916 --> 01:13:25,083
myself, because nobody guided me as to

1585
01:13:25,083 --> 01:13:26,833
which areas are most interesting.

1586
01:13:26,833 --> 01:13:30,583
And therefore, I decided when I received

1587
01:13:30,583 --> 01:13:32,958
an offer from Harvard University, I mean,

1588
01:13:32,958 --> 01:13:34,875
at the time, nobody was tenured at

1589
01:13:34,875 --> 01:13:37,041
Harvard from within for about 20 years.

1590
01:13:37,041 --> 01:13:37,708
They didn't tenure anyone.

1591
01:13:38,375 --> 01:13:40,833
So nobody wanted the job, the dream of...

1592
01:13:40,833 --> 01:13:42,833
In fact, they offered it to someone who

1593
01:13:42,833 --> 01:13:43,416
declined it and then they

1594
01:13:43,416 --> 01:13:45,458
said, "Okay, we'll go for Avi."

1595
01:13:45,458 --> 01:13:48,375
So I was the second in line. They gave me

1596
01:13:48,375 --> 01:13:51,458
the offer and I was not worried because I

1597
01:13:51,458 --> 01:13:52,833
could always go back to the

1598
01:13:52,833 --> 01:13:57,583
farm, my father's life work.

1599
01:13:57,583 --> 01:14:01,791
And there was nobody to continue the work

1600
01:14:01,791 --> 01:14:04,208
on the farm. And I was

1601
01:14:04,208 --> 01:14:05,500
very happy to do that.

1602
01:14:06,958 --> 01:14:09,708
My mother was into linguistics philosophy

1603
01:14:09,708 --> 01:14:13,000
at the time. And that's, you know, a lot

1604
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,541
of my inspiration came from her,

1605
01:14:15,541 --> 01:14:17,958
basically, the intellectual curiosity.

1606
01:14:17,958 --> 01:14:20,875
But at any event, I went to Harvard

1607
01:14:20,875 --> 01:14:24,250
because I had plan B to go back to the

1608
01:14:24,250 --> 01:14:26,625
farm. I didn't worry about job security.

1609
01:14:27,250 --> 01:14:34,500
I was tenured three years later because

1610
01:14:34,500 --> 01:14:36,708
Cornell was looking for someone and they

1611
01:14:36,708 --> 01:14:40,291
made me a tenured offer.

1612
01:14:40,291 --> 01:14:43,583
And then Harvard came forward six months

1613
01:14:43,583 --> 01:14:44,250
later and offered me

1614
01:14:44,250 --> 01:14:46,208
a tenured appointment.

1615
01:14:46,208 --> 01:14:48,666
So altogether, you know, I

1616
01:14:48,666 --> 01:14:51,708
ended up in an arranged marriage.

1617
01:14:52,416 --> 01:14:55,000
And at the time when I got tenure, I

1618
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,916
realized that even though it was

1619
01:14:56,916 --> 01:14:59,875
arranged, I'm married to my true love

1620
01:14:59,875 --> 01:15:01,541
because there are some fundamental

1621
01:15:01,541 --> 01:15:03,875
questions in astrophysics that I can

1622
01:15:03,875 --> 01:15:05,958
explore using the scientific method.

1623
01:15:05,958 --> 01:15:06,875
And I'm very

1624
01:15:06,875 --> 01:15:08,958
different than my colleagues.

1625
01:15:08,958 --> 01:15:11,125
Now, in 2011, I became chair of the

1626
01:15:11,125 --> 01:15:12,750
astronomy department at Harvard and

1627
01:15:12,750 --> 01:15:14,250
served for nine years,

1628
01:15:14,250 --> 01:15:15,708
the longest serving chair.

1629
01:15:15,875 --> 01:15:17,625
I'm still the director of the Institute

1630
01:15:17,625 --> 01:15:20,416
for Theory and Computation for about

1631
01:15:20,416 --> 01:15:22,208
almost 20 years now.

1632
01:15:22,208 --> 01:15:24,291
And I was the founding director of the

1633
01:15:24,291 --> 01:15:26,083
Black Hole Initiative at Harvard.

1634
01:15:26,083 --> 01:15:28,666
And so I was very much

1635
01:15:28,666 --> 01:15:31,083
part of the establishment.

1636
01:15:31,083 --> 01:15:32,791
And moreover, I chaired the board on

1637
01:15:32,791 --> 01:15:33,666
physics and astronomy of

1638
01:15:33,666 --> 01:15:34,708
the National Academies.

1639
01:15:35,416 --> 01:15:42,458
And I was a member of the board of

1640
01:15:42,458 --> 01:15:45,333
science and technology advisors of the US

1641
01:15:45,333 --> 01:15:47,375
president at the White House.

1642
01:15:47,375 --> 01:15:52,291
And so I served on many important boards.

1643
01:15:52,291 --> 01:15:55,666
I also chaired the scientific advisory

1644
01:15:55,666 --> 01:15:58,000
board for the Star Shot project, which is

1645
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,041
to send a probe to the nearest star

1646
01:16:00,041 --> 01:16:01,708
within a human's lifetime.

1647
01:16:02,083 --> 01:16:06,750
And that's where I got introduced to the

1648
01:16:06,750 --> 01:16:09,416
concept of a light sail, because that's

1649
01:16:09,416 --> 01:16:11,041
the only technology that would allow us

1650
01:16:11,041 --> 01:16:11,833
to reach a fraction

1651
01:16:11,833 --> 01:16:13,375
of the speed of light.

1652
01:16:13,375 --> 01:16:15,625
And whether there is a probe moving at

1653
01:16:15,625 --> 01:16:17,708
that speed through the solar system is

1654
01:16:17,708 --> 01:16:18,958
still an open question because

1655
01:16:18,958 --> 01:16:19,791
astronomers would not

1656
01:16:19,791 --> 01:16:21,750
notice it, by the way.

1657
01:16:21,750 --> 01:16:23,416
It would just appear in one image and

1658
01:16:23,416 --> 01:16:26,208
then they would dismiss it because most

1659
01:16:26,208 --> 01:16:28,125
of the rocks move at the speed that is

1660
01:16:28,125 --> 01:16:28,708
10,000 times smaller.

1661
01:16:29,416 --> 01:16:31,916
So anything moving so fast, close to the

1662
01:16:31,916 --> 01:16:33,000
speed of light would

1663
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,791
not be even analyzed.

1664
01:16:36,791 --> 01:16:39,083
So anyway, altogether I was

1665
01:16:39,083 --> 01:16:40,041
part of the establishment.

1666
01:16:40,041 --> 01:16:42,000
But then in 2017,

1667
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,500
Oumuamua was discovered.

1668
01:16:44,500 --> 01:16:47,541
And I should say about Oumuamua that when

1669
01:16:47,541 --> 01:16:50,000
I suggested that it may be a very thin

1670
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,625
object, it sounded far fetched.

1671
01:16:52,625 --> 01:16:52,708
Why would it be so thin?

1672
01:16:53,541 --> 01:16:56,500
But then three years later, the same

1673
01:16:56,500 --> 01:16:58,583
telescope in Hawaii, Pan-STARRS,

1674
01:16:58,583 --> 01:17:00,791
discovered another object which was

1675
01:17:00,791 --> 01:17:01,833
pushed away from the sun

1676
01:17:01,833 --> 01:17:03,250
by reflecting sunlight.

1677
01:17:03,250 --> 01:17:06,458
They verified that and had no cometary

1678
01:17:06,458 --> 01:17:08,208
tail, no cometary evaporation.

1679
01:17:08,208 --> 01:17:10,916
It was given the name 2020SO,

1680
01:17:10,916 --> 01:17:13,916
discovered in September 2020.

1681
01:17:13,916 --> 01:17:16,083
And then within a few weeks, the

1682
01:17:16,083 --> 01:17:17,666
astronomers realized, oh,

1683
01:17:17,666 --> 01:17:18,708
it actually came from Earth.

1684
01:17:18,833 --> 01:17:22,000
But if you go back in time, it was a

1685
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,333
rocket booster that was launched by NASA

1686
01:17:24,333 --> 01:17:26,541
in 1966 as part of a

1687
01:17:26,541 --> 01:17:28,500
lunar lander mission.

1688
01:17:28,500 --> 01:17:31,166
It's called 2020SO. It has a Wikipedia

1689
01:17:31,166 --> 01:17:32,958
page. You can check it.

1690
01:17:32,958 --> 01:17:36,250
And that was an object that we produced.

1691
01:17:36,250 --> 01:17:37,333
And we know that it was

1692
01:17:37,333 --> 01:17:39,500
made of stainless steel.

1693
01:17:39,500 --> 01:17:41,625
That's why it didn't evaporate.

1694
01:17:41,625 --> 01:17:44,125
There was no coma around it.

1695
01:17:44,125 --> 01:17:45,708
And it had thin walls.

1696
01:17:45,875 --> 01:17:46,958
That's why it was pushed

1697
01:17:46,958 --> 01:17:49,291
by reflecting sunlight.

1698
01:17:49,291 --> 01:17:53,416
So here is the technological object that

1699
01:17:53,416 --> 01:17:55,958
is artificial, not a rock.

1700
01:17:55,958 --> 01:17:58,666
And we know that because we made it.

1701
01:17:58,666 --> 01:18:02,000
The question is, who made Oumuamua?

1702
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:03,250
And that's a fundamental question.

1703
01:18:03,250 --> 01:18:05,583
So here is an example that my background

1704
01:18:05,583 --> 01:18:09,958
in philosophy helped me focus on

1705
01:18:09,958 --> 01:18:12,041
questions that have a big impact on the

1706
01:18:12,041 --> 01:18:13,666
future, on our future,

1707
01:18:14,833 --> 01:18:16,416
which are not necessarily popular.

1708
01:18:16,416 --> 01:18:17,250
That's the strange thing.

1709
01:18:17,250 --> 01:18:19,708
I told my wife, look, this is amazing.

1710
01:18:19,708 --> 01:18:21,125
Here is a subject that

1711
01:18:21,125 --> 01:18:23,666
would impact humanity greatly.

1712
01:18:23,666 --> 01:18:26,000
Yet all of my colleagues

1713
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:27,791
in academia are ignoring it.

1714
01:18:27,791 --> 01:18:29,791
Makes no sense whatsoever.

1715
01:18:29,791 --> 01:18:32,583
And just, you know, if you want, we live

1716
01:18:32,583 --> 01:18:33,583
for such a short time.

1717
01:18:33,583 --> 01:18:37,416
Let's focus on substance, you know, the

1718
01:18:37,416 --> 01:18:38,375
nature of dark matter,

1719
01:18:38,375 --> 01:18:40,000
even though we invested billions of

1720
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:41,791
dollars in searching for the dark matter,

1721
01:18:41,791 --> 01:18:42,708
we haven't found it.

1722
01:18:43,375 --> 01:18:44,875
But the nature of dark matter, we have

1723
01:18:44,875 --> 01:18:47,875
very little impact on our lives.

1724
01:18:47,875 --> 01:18:50,791
And yet not even a percent of that money

1725
01:18:50,791 --> 01:18:52,583
was invested in the search for objects

1726
01:18:52,583 --> 01:18:56,208
near Earth in a scientific fashion.

1727
01:18:56,208 --> 01:18:58,916
That's why we have the Galileo Project.

1728
01:18:58,916 --> 01:19:00,583
So, you know, we talked a little bit

1729
01:19:00,583 --> 01:19:03,208
about how I think your goal with Galileo

1730
01:19:03,208 --> 01:19:04,541
is to perhaps be able to

1731
01:19:04,541 --> 01:19:06,000
look beyond our atmosphere

1732
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:07,375
and be able to link what's happening

1733
01:19:07,375 --> 01:19:08,791
outside the universe to potentially

1734
01:19:08,791 --> 01:19:09,541
what's happening with

1735
01:19:09,541 --> 01:19:11,708
UAP in our atmosphere.

1736
01:19:11,833 --> 01:19:13,791
Is that fair? Do you think we can really

1737
01:19:13,791 --> 01:19:15,583
ever figure out the origin and understand

1738
01:19:15,583 --> 01:19:16,833
UAP only looking at

1739
01:19:16,833 --> 01:19:18,291
them in our atmosphere?

1740
01:19:18,291 --> 01:19:21,166
Well, so there are two types of objects

1741
01:19:21,166 --> 01:19:22,750
that we may expect from an

1742
01:19:22,750 --> 01:19:24,250
extraterrestrial origin.

1743
01:19:24,250 --> 01:19:26,833
And I should tell you that I was at the

1744
01:19:26,833 --> 01:19:27,875
Washington National

1745
01:19:27,875 --> 01:19:29,958
Cathedral for the Ignatius Forum

1746
01:19:29,958 --> 01:19:33,125
together with the Director of National

1747
01:19:33,125 --> 01:19:34,416
Intelligence, Ariel Haynes,

1748
01:19:35,666 --> 01:19:37,166
who was actually about five months after

1749
01:19:37,166 --> 01:19:38,958
she delivered the first report to the

1750
01:19:38,958 --> 01:19:40,500
U.S. Congress about

1751
01:19:40,500 --> 01:19:42,875
unidentified aerial phenomena.

1752
01:19:42,875 --> 01:19:45,291
There was also Jeff Bezos in the green

1753
01:19:45,291 --> 01:19:47,375
room, but I approached Avril because she

1754
01:19:47,375 --> 01:19:50,708
has a bachelor degree in physics from the

1755
01:19:50,708 --> 01:19:51,458
University of Chicago.

1756
01:19:51,458 --> 01:19:53,791
So she speaks my language.

1757
01:19:53,791 --> 01:19:56,375
And so I went to her and I said, these

1758
01:19:56,375 --> 01:19:59,166
objects that you reported about, what is

1759
01:19:59,166 --> 01:20:00,708
your hunch? What are they?

1760
01:20:01,291 --> 01:20:04,208
And she said, I don't know. And I believe

1761
01:20:04,208 --> 01:20:08,166
her because I think the government sees

1762
01:20:08,166 --> 01:20:09,583
things they don't fully understand.

1763
01:20:09,583 --> 01:20:12,000
It's impossible from anecdotal data to

1764
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:16,208
figure out what this data represents.

1765
01:20:16,208 --> 01:20:18,000
And the only way to figure it out is

1766
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:20,291
through a systematic survey of the sky

1767
01:20:20,291 --> 01:20:22,083
with the best instruments we have

1768
01:20:22,083 --> 01:20:24,666
currently and getting new data,

1769
01:20:24,666 --> 01:20:26,333
which is pretty much the philosophy of

1770
01:20:26,333 --> 01:20:27,708
the Galileo project.

1771
01:20:28,791 --> 01:20:31,291
We don't want to rely on past data

1772
01:20:31,291 --> 01:20:33,416
because it was compromised. It was not

1773
01:20:33,416 --> 01:20:36,291
intentional, the search.

1774
01:20:36,291 --> 01:20:39,291
And we want to calibrate the instruments

1775
01:20:39,291 --> 01:20:41,125
we're using to have them under full

1776
01:20:41,125 --> 01:20:42,333
control so that we can

1777
01:20:42,333 --> 01:20:44,791
reproduce whatever is out there.

1778
01:20:44,791 --> 01:20:47,541
And one thing about reports is that they

1779
01:20:47,541 --> 01:20:50,000
correlate with the population density,

1780
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:51,375
those from civilians.

1781
01:20:51,375 --> 01:20:52,416
There is no other

1782
01:20:52,416 --> 01:20:53,708
correlation if you look at it.

1783
01:20:54,541 --> 01:20:57,416
And basically, they represent a number of

1784
01:20:57,416 --> 01:20:59,208
eyes looking at the sky.

1785
01:20:59,208 --> 01:21:04,000
And to me, that says one thing, that

1786
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:06,083
unidentified objects may be everywhere.

1787
01:21:06,083 --> 01:21:08,416
And if you think about it, it could be

1788
01:21:08,416 --> 01:21:10,916
balloons. Balloons are everywhere.

1789
01:21:10,916 --> 01:21:12,333
And when you look

1790
01:21:12,333 --> 01:21:13,500
around, you would see balloons.

1791
01:21:13,500 --> 01:21:15,458
Now, the director of National

1792
01:21:15,458 --> 01:21:18,875
Intelligence Report did mention the

1793
01:21:18,875 --> 01:21:21,541
recent one from 2022 that about half of

1794
01:21:21,541 --> 01:21:22,708
the objects may be balloons.

1795
01:21:24,708 --> 01:21:27,083
From the government's perspective, of

1796
01:21:27,083 --> 01:21:30,666
course, the key question is, do they pose

1797
01:21:30,666 --> 01:21:32,166
a national security threat?

1798
01:21:32,166 --> 01:21:34,666
And because they worry about the safety

1799
01:21:34,666 --> 01:21:35,583
of the nation, the

1800
01:21:35,583 --> 01:21:38,333
safety of military personnel.

1801
01:21:38,333 --> 01:21:40,500
And of course, for that, they need to

1802
01:21:40,500 --> 01:21:43,791
understand what all the objects are.

1803
01:21:43,791 --> 01:21:45,041
And sometimes they

1804
01:21:45,041 --> 01:21:45,708
need to shoot them down.

1805
01:21:47,500 --> 01:21:50,916
To me, from a scientist's perspective, if

1806
01:21:50,916 --> 01:21:52,791
the government shoots down objects, it's

1807
01:21:52,791 --> 01:21:54,541
great because first it protects the

1808
01:21:54,541 --> 01:21:55,541
nation, but also it

1809
01:21:55,541 --> 01:21:57,041
reduces the clutter in the sky.

1810
01:21:57,041 --> 01:21:59,583
So it reduces the level of noise that

1811
01:21:59,583 --> 01:22:01,083
they have to deal with.

1812
01:22:01,083 --> 01:22:03,333
But as a scientist, I want to know

1813
01:22:03,333 --> 01:22:06,208
whether even one object out of hundreds

1814
01:22:06,208 --> 01:22:08,333
is from an extraterrestrial origin.

1815
01:22:08,333 --> 01:22:09,583
And that possibility, as

1816
01:22:09,583 --> 01:22:10,708
of now, is not ruled out.

1817
01:22:11,500 --> 01:22:15,291
In fact, Avril related to that. She

1818
01:22:15,291 --> 01:22:17,416
mentioned the word extraterrestrial in

1819
01:22:17,416 --> 01:22:20,333
her discussion in

1820
01:22:20,333 --> 01:22:22,375
Washington when I was there.

1821
01:22:22,375 --> 01:22:23,875
The other thing that happened was I was

1822
01:22:23,875 --> 01:22:26,333
sitting next to her when Jeff Bezos was

1823
01:22:26,333 --> 01:22:28,708
talking about the fact that he was

1824
01:22:28,708 --> 01:22:29,458
inspired by watching

1825
01:22:29,458 --> 01:22:31,750
as a kid, the Star Trek,

1826
01:22:31,750 --> 01:22:33,333
inspired to go into space, to venture

1827
01:22:33,333 --> 01:22:35,291
into space and establish

1828
01:22:35,291 --> 01:22:35,708
blue origins and so forth.

1829
01:22:36,333 --> 01:22:40,000
And I told Avril, "Well, I never liked

1830
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:42,708
science fiction. I enjoyed doing science,

1831
01:22:42,708 --> 01:22:46,250
but I separated from fiction.

1832
01:22:46,250 --> 01:22:48,625
And when I see in science fiction a

1833
01:22:48,625 --> 01:22:49,791
violation of the laws of

1834
01:22:49,791 --> 01:22:52,083
physics, it bothers me.

1835
01:22:52,083 --> 01:22:53,125
It doesn't look real

1836
01:22:53,125 --> 01:22:54,958
and I cannot enjoy it."

1837
01:22:54,958 --> 01:22:56,875
And she said, "Avril,

1838
01:22:56,875 --> 01:22:59,791
we have to work on you."

1839
01:22:59,791 --> 01:23:03,708
But, you know, let me explain, actually.

1840
01:23:04,666 --> 01:23:08,708
The reason I'm reluctant to consider new

1841
01:23:08,708 --> 01:23:12,875
physics is because the known physics

1842
01:23:12,875 --> 01:23:15,125
explains so much and is being

1843
01:23:15,125 --> 01:23:18,083
tested so much that, in fact,

1844
01:23:18,083 --> 01:23:20,583
physicists in laboratories worked for

1845
01:23:20,583 --> 01:23:23,708
decades to tease out a tiny deviation

1846
01:23:23,708 --> 01:23:24,708
from what we know about physics.

1847
01:23:25,583 --> 01:23:29,250
And fundamental particle physics did not

1848
01:23:29,250 --> 01:23:32,666
discover anything fundamentally new over

1849
01:23:32,666 --> 01:23:36,416
the past maybe several decades.

1850
01:23:36,416 --> 01:23:38,333
I mean, the Higgs boson was found, but

1851
01:23:38,333 --> 01:23:41,791
it's old news because it was believed

1852
01:23:41,791 --> 01:23:44,708
that it must exist already from the '60s.

1853
01:23:45,291 --> 01:23:48,541
But nothing really fundamentally new

1854
01:23:48,541 --> 01:23:52,333
about the universe was discovered in

1855
01:23:52,333 --> 01:23:54,541
laboratories and it shows you how

1856
01:23:54,541 --> 01:23:57,250
difficult it is to discover new physics.

1857
01:23:57,250 --> 01:24:00,583
And in order to argue that what you see

1858
01:24:00,583 --> 01:24:01,500
represents new physics, you

1859
01:24:01,500 --> 01:24:03,583
need to have exquisite data.

1860
01:24:03,583 --> 01:24:05,250
You need to have the best data so that

1861
01:24:05,250 --> 01:24:07,208
you rule out all

1862
01:24:07,208 --> 01:24:08,708
interpretations based on known physics.

1863
01:24:09,958 --> 01:24:12,458
However, in the public, the

1864
01:24:12,458 --> 01:24:15,583
conception is very different.

1865
01:24:15,583 --> 01:24:18,416
People may argue that if you see a hole

1866
01:24:18,416 --> 01:24:22,750
in the clouds, it may be a wormhole, a

1867
01:24:22,750 --> 01:24:24,625
tunnel in space-time that allows you to

1868
01:24:24,625 --> 01:24:26,958
move faster than light.

1869
01:24:26,958 --> 01:24:30,041
Of course, it allows for a wormhole, but

1870
01:24:30,041 --> 01:24:30,708
it's not evidence for a wormhole.

1871
01:24:31,750 --> 01:24:35,916
Evidence in science for new physics means

1872
01:24:35,916 --> 01:24:38,500
that you have such good data that you can

1873
01:24:38,500 --> 01:24:41,291
rule out a meteorological

1874
01:24:41,291 --> 01:24:43,083
origin for the hole in the clouds.

1875
01:24:43,083 --> 01:24:44,791
You have to understand what is happening

1876
01:24:44,791 --> 01:24:47,291
there to exquisite precision.

1877
01:24:47,291 --> 01:24:49,666
You can't go to a place for a day, see

1878
01:24:49,666 --> 01:24:50,541
something unusual and

1879
01:24:50,541 --> 01:24:50,708
claim, "Oh, that's a miracle."

1880
01:24:51,916 --> 01:24:54,875
I mean, of course, if someone would claim

1881
01:24:54,875 --> 01:24:58,416
that they see a burning bush like Moses

1882
01:24:58,416 --> 01:25:02,708
did in the Bible, the Old Testament,

1883
01:25:02,708 --> 01:25:05,083
I would argue we should send infrared

1884
01:25:05,083 --> 01:25:06,125
cameras to figure out

1885
01:25:06,125 --> 01:25:08,666
what this burning bush is.

1886
01:25:08,666 --> 01:25:13,416
Okay, so with present-day science, it's

1887
01:25:13,416 --> 01:25:14,708
instruments that count.

1888
01:25:15,291 --> 01:25:21,291
And for the soccer World Cup in Qatar,

1889
01:25:21,291 --> 01:25:24,250
FIFA established a semi-automatic

1890
01:25:24,250 --> 01:25:27,833
procedure using cameras and artificial

1891
01:25:27,833 --> 01:25:32,041
intelligence to figure out offsides.

1892
01:25:32,041 --> 01:25:37,708
So instead of relying on referees or the

1893
01:25:37,708 --> 01:25:39,250
audience or the players, whether there

1894
01:25:39,250 --> 01:25:41,125
was an offside, they

1895
01:25:41,125 --> 01:25:41,708
have an automated system.

1896
01:25:42,500 --> 01:25:45,041
Why? Because when there is a car

1897
01:25:45,041 --> 01:25:47,583
accident, you can't really rely on the

1898
01:25:47,583 --> 01:25:49,458
people involved as to what happened

1899
01:25:49,458 --> 01:25:50,416
because they give

1900
01:25:50,416 --> 01:25:53,333
conflicting reports to the same event.

1901
01:25:53,333 --> 01:25:56,958
And so think of the Galileo project as

1902
01:25:56,958 --> 01:25:59,791
the same tool that FIFA is using to

1903
01:25:59,791 --> 01:26:00,708
decide about offsides.

1904
01:26:01,833 --> 01:26:03,791
The Galileo project is building an

1905
01:26:03,791 --> 01:26:09,041
assembly of instruments that will give us

1906
01:26:09,041 --> 01:26:11,791
confidence in our conclusions and allow

1907
01:26:11,791 --> 01:26:14,416
us to infer in an objective manner using

1908
01:26:14,416 --> 01:26:15,791
computer algorithms,

1909
01:26:15,791 --> 01:26:17,083
what we are looking at

1910
01:26:17,083 --> 01:26:19,250
and what really happened.

1911
01:26:19,250 --> 01:26:23,166
And if FIFA realizes it, we should all

1912
01:26:23,166 --> 01:26:26,333
realize it about unusual objects in space

1913
01:26:26,333 --> 01:26:27,916
because if we were to rely

1914
01:26:27,916 --> 01:26:28,708
on eyewitness testimonies,

1915
01:26:29,500 --> 01:26:31,250
we'll end up with the same situation as

1916
01:26:31,250 --> 01:26:32,916
we end up in the courtroom where people

1917
01:26:32,916 --> 01:26:36,208
are put in jail and then DNA testing

1918
01:26:36,208 --> 01:26:37,583
shows that they were innocent.

1919
01:26:37,583 --> 01:26:38,666
Let me ask you a question

1920
01:26:38,666 --> 01:26:40,833
about your soccer example.

1921
01:26:40,833 --> 01:26:43,833
In that example, with the automation,

1922
01:26:43,833 --> 01:26:45,500
someone who was not familiar with that

1923
01:26:45,500 --> 01:26:48,416
game might infer that there was some type

1924
01:26:48,416 --> 01:26:52,958
of magic or influence that was causing

1925
01:26:52,958 --> 01:26:54,791
that determination if someone was

1926
01:26:54,791 --> 01:26:55,708
offsides or not to happen.

1927
01:26:56,500 --> 01:26:58,916
But from our perspective, it's clever

1928
01:26:58,916 --> 01:27:01,083
engineering versus something miraculous.

1929
01:27:01,083 --> 01:27:04,416
So in the conversation about new physics

1930
01:27:04,416 --> 01:27:06,833
versus what we're seeing, how do we know

1931
01:27:06,833 --> 01:27:09,583
we're not just observing clever physics

1932
01:27:09,583 --> 01:27:10,916
versus, excuse me, clever

1933
01:27:10,916 --> 01:27:12,708
engineering versus new physics?

1934
01:27:12,708 --> 01:27:14,000
And where's the line?

1935
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:16,708
Well, so far we have no evidence for new

1936
01:27:16,708 --> 01:27:21,666
physics because what I'm trying to say is

1937
01:27:21,666 --> 01:27:24,000
that to have evidence for new physics,

1938
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:24,708
you need extremely good data.

1939
01:27:25,500 --> 01:27:27,958
You can't just argue that you see dark

1940
01:27:27,958 --> 01:27:30,541
objects in the sky that you can infer the

1941
01:27:30,541 --> 01:27:32,875
distance to using an approximate method,

1942
01:27:32,875 --> 01:27:34,958
as some astronomers in

1943
01:27:34,958 --> 01:27:36,791
Ukraine were trying to do.

1944
01:27:36,791 --> 01:27:38,875
And they argue that these objects are

1945
01:27:38,875 --> 01:27:41,375
moving faster than the escape speed from

1946
01:27:41,375 --> 01:27:44,000
the Earth, 15 kilometers per second at a

1947
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:45,666
distance of 10 kilometers.

1948
01:27:45,666 --> 01:27:47,041
And they were saying these objects are

1949
01:27:47,041 --> 01:27:50,708
the size of an airplane, like 10 meters.

1950
01:27:51,333 --> 01:27:55,250
And I said, well, you know, if there were

1951
01:27:55,250 --> 01:27:56,541
objects moving through the atmosphere and

1952
01:27:56,541 --> 01:27:59,291
they were blocking light, that's what

1953
01:27:59,291 --> 01:28:01,166
these dark objects should have been

1954
01:28:01,166 --> 01:28:03,666
doing, blocking light, then they interact

1955
01:28:03,666 --> 01:28:06,291
also with molecules electromagnetically,

1956
01:28:06,291 --> 01:28:07,833
because if they block light, they

1957
01:28:07,833 --> 01:28:08,708
interact electromagnetically.

1958
01:28:09,458 --> 01:28:12,083
And so there is no way out from them

1959
01:28:12,083 --> 01:28:13,791
producing a fireball, just the way

1960
01:28:13,791 --> 01:28:18,083
meteors do because of these speeds and

1961
01:28:18,083 --> 01:28:20,166
they would not look dark. So the fact

1962
01:28:20,166 --> 01:28:22,791
that these objects look dark already sets

1963
01:28:22,791 --> 01:28:25,875
a maximum distance from the observer.

1964
01:28:25,875 --> 01:28:28,791
And if, on the other hand, the Ukrainian

1965
01:28:28,791 --> 01:28:31,833
astronomers would have triangulation,

1966
01:28:31,833 --> 01:28:32,541
then it would be a

1967
01:28:32,541 --> 01:28:34,708
much more convincing case.

1968
01:28:35,125 --> 01:28:37,625
They did have triangulation for other

1969
01:28:37,625 --> 01:28:39,958
objects, and those ended up being at

1970
01:28:39,958 --> 01:28:40,916
exactly the elevation that

1971
01:28:40,916 --> 01:28:43,375
you expect spy satellites to be.

1972
01:28:43,375 --> 01:28:47,000
So I say, well, your bright objects may

1973
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:49,291
be satellites, because that's the

1974
01:28:49,291 --> 01:28:51,750
distance that they hover above the Earth.

1975
01:28:51,750 --> 01:28:53,791
But the dark objects did

1976
01:28:53,791 --> 01:28:55,208
not have triangulation.

1977
01:28:55,208 --> 01:28:58,458
And when I said there is no fireball,

1978
01:28:58,458 --> 01:29:00,166
therefore it must be closer, maybe

1979
01:29:00,166 --> 01:29:01,291
artillery shells, maybe

1980
01:29:01,291 --> 01:29:02,708
bullets flying closer to you.

1981
01:29:03,166 --> 01:29:05,041
These would look like dark objects moving

1982
01:29:05,041 --> 01:29:07,416
fast across the sky. Then a lot of people

1983
01:29:07,416 --> 01:29:09,916
in the public got upset and said, well,

1984
01:29:09,916 --> 01:29:11,625
20 years ago, there were other people

1985
01:29:11,625 --> 01:29:13,166
reporting about objects moving through

1986
01:29:13,166 --> 01:29:15,958
air without much friction.

1987
01:29:15,958 --> 01:29:19,416
And that is completely irrelevant.

1988
01:29:19,416 --> 01:29:23,875
Any case should be dealt with the data

1989
01:29:23,875 --> 01:29:25,416
that we have for it,

1990
01:29:25,416 --> 01:29:26,708
irrespective of other cases.

1991
01:29:27,125 --> 01:29:29,125
And if the data is not exquisite, if we

1992
01:29:29,125 --> 01:29:30,750
don't have distance measurements, we

1993
01:29:30,750 --> 01:29:32,916
can't argue for new physics. That's all.

1994
01:29:32,916 --> 01:29:34,875
That's the way science is done.

1995
01:29:34,875 --> 01:29:35,875
And that's the

1996
01:29:35,875 --> 01:29:38,833
professional way of approaching it.

1997
01:29:38,833 --> 01:29:43,041
And you have scientists in academia

1998
01:29:43,041 --> 01:29:45,125
reluctant to get engaged with

1999
01:29:45,125 --> 01:29:47,458
unidentified objects because they say,

2000
01:29:47,458 --> 01:29:49,250
well, we don't want to be in the same bed

2001
01:29:49,250 --> 01:29:52,250
with people that argue on any incomplete

2002
01:29:52,250 --> 01:29:54,250
data set that there is no physics.

2003
01:29:54,875 --> 01:29:56,958
I say this is inappropriate as well

2004
01:29:56,958 --> 01:29:58,833
because we have the ability to collect

2005
01:29:58,833 --> 01:30:02,791
the data. We should not say extraordinary

2006
01:30:02,791 --> 01:30:04,708
claims require extraordinary evidence

2007
01:30:04,708 --> 01:30:06,708
without seeking the evidence.

2008
01:30:06,708 --> 01:30:10,000
This is Carl Sagan's mantra.

2009
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:14,166
My mantra is extraordinary evidence

2010
01:30:14,166 --> 01:30:16,458
requires extraordinary funding and

2011
01:30:16,458 --> 01:30:18,166
effort. You need to put the effort to do

2012
01:30:18,166 --> 01:30:20,750
the work. And this is hard work,

2013
01:30:20,750 --> 01:30:23,083
collecting the evidence in a reliable way

2014
01:30:23,083 --> 01:30:24,750
using well calibrated instruments that

2015
01:30:24,750 --> 01:30:26,708
you fully understand and are under your

2016
01:30:26,708 --> 01:30:27,708
control is hard work.

2017
01:30:27,708 --> 01:30:29,958
It's much easier to be a blogger that

2018
01:30:29,958 --> 01:30:32,708
didn't write a scientific paper for 15

2019
01:30:32,708 --> 01:30:33,916
years to argue that you're an

2020
01:30:33,916 --> 01:30:35,416
astrophysicist and you have an opinion

2021
01:30:35,416 --> 01:30:38,666
about whether you are this or that.

2022
01:30:38,791 --> 01:30:40,666
It's very easy. You just sit back and

2023
01:30:40,666 --> 01:30:43,333
say, make, you know, tweet about it. And

2024
01:30:43,333 --> 01:30:45,583
you can tweet about it in a way that

2025
01:30:45,583 --> 01:30:49,375
reflects the opinions of your tribe.

2026
01:30:49,375 --> 01:30:51,625
And you will get a lot of likes. And then

2027
01:30:51,625 --> 01:30:53,458
someone from the other tribe will get a

2028
01:30:53,458 --> 01:30:55,791
lot of likes for the opposite opinion.

2029
01:30:55,791 --> 01:30:58,000
But that will not promote our knowledge

2030
01:30:58,000 --> 01:30:59,708
of what reality is like.

2031
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:02,000
We will just have these tribes like we

2032
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:04,208
have in politics. You can't rely on

2033
01:31:04,208 --> 01:31:06,708
people to tell you what reality is. You

2034
01:31:06,708 --> 01:31:09,500
have to rely on instruments and you have

2035
01:31:09,500 --> 01:31:11,708
to rely on reproducibility of results

2036
01:31:11,708 --> 01:31:13,041
through instruments,

2037
01:31:13,041 --> 01:31:14,250
quantitative measurements.

2038
01:31:14,250 --> 01:31:15,291
That's the way science is

2039
01:31:15,291 --> 01:31:17,958
done. Now, this is not just theory.

2040
01:31:17,958 --> 01:31:20,000
The reason the two of us are using these

2041
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:22,291
microphones and that this conversation is

2042
01:31:22,291 --> 01:31:24,583
recorded electronically is because we

2043
01:31:24,583 --> 01:31:26,333
understand quantum mechanics and nobody

2044
01:31:26,333 --> 01:31:27,208
expected quantum

2045
01:31:27,208 --> 01:31:28,708
mechanics in the first case.

2046
01:31:29,666 --> 01:31:31,750
So a hundred years ago, it was discovered

2047
01:31:31,750 --> 01:31:34,041
experimentally. And what did we learn

2048
01:31:34,041 --> 01:31:36,375
from that experience that we should

2049
01:31:36,375 --> 01:31:39,166
listen to nature, not to people because

2050
01:31:39,166 --> 01:31:42,500
even Albert Einstein 1935 wrote a paper

2051
01:31:42,500 --> 01:31:45,541
saying quantum mechanics does not have

2052
01:31:45,541 --> 01:31:48,666
or I don't believe that quantum mechanics

2053
01:31:48,666 --> 01:31:51,416
has spooky action at a distance. That's

2054
01:31:51,416 --> 01:31:52,708
the way he called the entanglement.

2055
01:31:53,875 --> 01:31:58,333
And the Nobel Prize in physics in 2022,

2056
01:31:58,333 --> 01:32:04,958
'97 years after that, was given to the

2057
01:32:04,958 --> 01:32:07,541
experimentalists who

2058
01:32:07,541 --> 01:32:09,916
proved Einstein wrong.

2059
01:32:09,916 --> 01:32:13,416
And so even the brightest mind among

2060
01:32:13,416 --> 01:32:16,458
physicists of the 20th century made

2061
01:32:16,458 --> 01:32:17,708
mistakes. This is one of them.

2062
01:32:17,708 --> 01:32:19,500
He built a model and his model didn't

2063
01:32:19,500 --> 01:32:19,708
encompass everything.

2064
01:32:20,916 --> 01:32:24,458
Well, no, he had the intuition that God

2065
01:32:24,458 --> 01:32:27,333
does not play dice kind of that. Quantum

2066
01:32:27,333 --> 01:32:30,458
mechanics can be explained using our

2067
01:32:30,458 --> 01:32:31,833
intuition that there is a

2068
01:32:31,833 --> 01:32:34,250
deterministic reality behind it.

2069
01:32:34,250 --> 01:32:35,958
But he was wrong about it. And we still

2070
01:32:35,958 --> 01:32:38,250
don't understand quantum mechanics. He

2071
01:32:38,250 --> 01:32:41,541
was wrong within five years of 1935. He

2072
01:32:41,541 --> 01:32:42,708
was wrong on two other counts.

2073
01:32:43,291 --> 01:32:45,583
One, he claimed that black holes do not

2074
01:32:45,583 --> 01:32:48,958
exist because he said that when a star

2075
01:32:48,958 --> 01:32:50,125
collapses to make a black

2076
01:32:50,125 --> 01:32:52,708
hole, it will have some rotation.

2077
01:32:52,708 --> 01:32:54,708
And as a result, that would prevent it

2078
01:32:54,708 --> 01:32:56,083
from collapsing all

2079
01:32:56,083 --> 01:32:58,458
the way to a black hole.

2080
01:32:58,458 --> 01:33:02,583
And I think that was a result of his

2081
01:33:02,583 --> 01:33:05,458
relationship with Oppenheimer, who at the

2082
01:33:05,458 --> 01:33:07,291
time had a model for a collapsing star

2083
01:33:07,291 --> 01:33:08,125
that was just

2084
01:33:08,125 --> 01:33:09,708
spherically symmetric with no spin.

2085
01:33:10,375 --> 01:33:11,875
And he was the director of the Institute

2086
01:33:11,875 --> 01:33:13,708
for Advanced Study, Oppenheimer, and they

2087
01:33:13,708 --> 01:33:16,083
had a sort of a very

2088
01:33:16,083 --> 01:33:18,250
unusual relationship.

2089
01:33:18,250 --> 01:33:22,333
But the third mistake that Einstein made

2090
01:33:22,333 --> 01:33:26,083
between 1935 and 1940 was to say that

2091
01:33:26,083 --> 01:33:28,166
gravitational waves do not exist.

2092
01:33:28,166 --> 01:33:30,791
And he wrote a paper about it with Nathan

2093
01:33:30,791 --> 01:33:33,500
Rosen and submitted it for publication in

2094
01:33:33,500 --> 01:33:35,208
the Physical Review.

2095
01:33:36,291 --> 01:33:39,291
And the paper was referred and Einstein

2096
01:33:39,291 --> 01:33:41,500
was upset because the referee did not

2097
01:33:41,500 --> 01:33:43,791
accept the paper for publication.

2098
01:33:43,791 --> 01:33:46,541
And Einstein said, I will never submit

2099
01:33:46,541 --> 01:33:48,291
another paper to the Physical Review

2100
01:33:48,291 --> 01:33:51,833
because they dare to doubt my opinion.

2101
01:33:51,833 --> 01:33:54,041
And this referee actually saved him from

2102
01:33:54,041 --> 01:33:58,250
a public embarrassment because, you know,

2103
01:33:58,250 --> 01:34:01,833
we now know, we measured in 2015,

2104
01:34:01,833 --> 01:34:02,416
gravitational waves

2105
01:34:02,416 --> 01:34:03,708
with the LIGO experiment.

2106
01:34:04,208 --> 01:34:06,666
And the Nobel Prize was awarded to that.

2107
01:34:06,666 --> 01:34:08,708
And also the Nobel Prize was awarded to

2108
01:34:08,708 --> 01:34:10,125
the discovery of

2109
01:34:10,125 --> 01:34:11,291
astrophysical black holes.

2110
01:34:11,291 --> 01:34:16,541
So over the past six years, there were

2111
01:34:16,541 --> 01:34:20,083
three Nobel Prizes in physics, correcting

2112
01:34:20,083 --> 01:34:22,375
three mistakes that Albert Einstein made

2113
01:34:22,375 --> 01:34:25,791
between 1935 and 1940.

2114
01:34:25,791 --> 01:34:27,583
Those people who proved him

2115
01:34:27,583 --> 01:34:28,708
wrong got the Nobel Prize.

2116
01:34:29,666 --> 01:34:32,000
What does it show us that when you work

2117
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:36,583
at the frontiers of physics, you know,

2118
01:34:36,583 --> 01:34:37,916
obviously you don't know what's right,

2119
01:34:37,916 --> 01:34:39,583
what's wrong, and you can make mistakes.

2120
01:34:39,583 --> 01:34:43,333
That's a signature of taking risks and

2121
01:34:43,333 --> 01:34:46,000
willing to push the envelope.

2122
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:49,458
So, you know, it's possible that Oumuamua

2123
01:34:49,458 --> 01:34:51,750
was a nitrogen iceberg.

2124
01:34:51,750 --> 01:34:53,583
And if the next object comes along and we

2125
01:34:53,583 --> 01:34:54,708
see that it's made of

2126
01:34:54,708 --> 01:34:56,708
nitrogen, I was wrong.

2127
01:34:57,958 --> 01:35:00,791
It's possible that unidentified aerial

2128
01:35:00,791 --> 01:35:04,583
phenomena are just balloons.

2129
01:35:04,583 --> 01:35:06,500
And we will go with the Galileo Project

2130
01:35:06,500 --> 01:35:10,291
observatories and find the balloons.

2131
01:35:10,291 --> 01:35:12,000
It's possible that the interstellar

2132
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:15,541
meteors were tougher than iron because

2133
01:35:15,541 --> 01:35:18,875
the data reported by the US

2134
01:35:18,875 --> 01:35:20,708
government had errors in it.

2135
01:35:21,875 --> 01:35:24,375
And once we go to the Pacific Ocean with

2136
01:35:24,375 --> 01:35:26,541
an expedition and scoop the ocean floor

2137
01:35:26,541 --> 01:35:28,666
with the machinery that we just tested

2138
01:35:28,666 --> 01:35:32,708
last week, and it works amazingly well,

2139
01:35:32,708 --> 01:35:34,916
we have magnets to collect magnetic

2140
01:35:34,916 --> 01:35:36,708
particles, we have a Sluicing device to

2141
01:35:36,708 --> 01:35:38,958
collect other types of particles.

2142
01:35:38,958 --> 01:35:40,625
It's possible that we will find that it

2143
01:35:40,625 --> 01:35:43,666
was just an iron meteorite and that the

2144
01:35:43,666 --> 01:35:44,750
data from the US

2145
01:35:44,750 --> 01:35:46,708
government was inaccurate.

2146
01:35:47,666 --> 01:35:49,916
I mean, the US government in a way

2147
01:35:49,916 --> 01:35:53,000
supported this study more than the

2148
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:56,708
academic community because the first

2149
01:35:56,708 --> 01:35:58,291
paper that we wrote about this

2150
01:35:58,291 --> 01:35:59,791
interstellar meteor with my student Amir

2151
01:35:59,791 --> 01:36:02,583
Siraj suggested that it's interstellar.

2152
01:36:02,583 --> 01:36:03,958
It was the first interstellar

2153
01:36:03,958 --> 01:36:06,541
object ever detected in 2014.

2154
01:36:06,541 --> 01:36:07,791
And the paper was not

2155
01:36:07,791 --> 01:36:08,666
accepted for publication.

2156
01:36:08,666 --> 01:36:11,125
It was rejected by the referees who

2157
01:36:11,125 --> 01:36:12,041
argued that they don't

2158
01:36:12,041 --> 01:36:12,708
believe the US government.

2159
01:36:14,250 --> 01:36:17,916
And I then at the time was the chair of

2160
01:36:17,916 --> 01:36:19,583
the board on physics and astronomy of the

2161
01:36:19,583 --> 01:36:21,000
National Academies, there was a member of

2162
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:23,125
the board from Los Alamos.

2163
01:36:23,125 --> 01:36:26,083
And he connected me to some people behind

2164
01:36:26,083 --> 01:36:30,666
the national security fence and

2165
01:36:30,666 --> 01:36:33,416
eventually someone working at the Office

2166
01:36:33,416 --> 01:36:35,125
of Science and Technology Policy in the

2167
01:36:35,125 --> 01:36:39,125
White House enabled a

2168
01:36:39,125 --> 01:36:41,708
letter from the US Space Command

2169
01:36:42,666 --> 01:36:46,166
under the Department of Defense to NASA

2170
01:36:46,166 --> 01:36:50,958
confirming publicly at the 99.999%

2171
01:36:50,958 --> 01:36:53,750
confidence that this meteor came from

2172
01:36:53,750 --> 01:36:54,750
outside the solar system.

2173
01:36:54,750 --> 01:36:57,083
That was amazing. The Department of

2174
01:36:57,083 --> 01:37:00,166
Defense came to my defense when I was

2175
01:37:00,166 --> 01:37:01,791
confronted by colleagues in academia that

2176
01:37:01,791 --> 01:37:03,833
should think blue sky, right?

2177
01:37:03,833 --> 01:37:06,208
Because there are hundreds of papers

2178
01:37:06,208 --> 01:37:07,625
about the nature of dark matter talking

2179
01:37:07,625 --> 01:37:08,625
about particles that we

2180
01:37:08,625 --> 01:37:09,708
know do not exist by now.

2181
01:37:10,625 --> 01:37:12,458
And so why should that be allowed when

2182
01:37:12,458 --> 01:37:15,000
the US government reports data, you

2183
01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:17,041
should block the publication of claiming

2184
01:37:17,041 --> 01:37:18,291
they don't know what.

2185
01:37:18,291 --> 01:37:21,708
So, you know, in a way,

2186
01:37:21,708 --> 01:37:23,791
Do you think that's why Dr. Kirkpatrick

2187
01:37:23,791 --> 01:37:25,625
came to you out of anyone he could have

2188
01:37:25,625 --> 01:37:28,291
come to in academia?

2189
01:37:29,458 --> 01:37:33,083
Well, I think probably the reason he came

2190
01:37:33,083 --> 01:37:35,833
to speak with me and he came to this

2191
01:37:35,833 --> 01:37:40,625
house not far from where you sit and

2192
01:37:40,625 --> 01:37:41,625
there were plenty of people

2193
01:37:41,625 --> 01:37:42,750
that came to where you sit.

2194
01:37:42,750 --> 01:37:44,666
I mean, just Hawking and Kirkpatrick,

2195
01:37:44,666 --> 01:37:46,875
there were many multi billionaires and

2196
01:37:46,875 --> 01:37:48,125
over the past year or

2197
01:37:48,125 --> 01:37:49,833
two. Yeah, a lot of them.

2198
01:37:51,541 --> 01:37:53,750
If someone told me that they would have

2199
01:37:53,750 --> 01:37:55,291
loved to be a fly on the wall because

2200
01:37:55,291 --> 01:37:56,708
there were so many interesting

2201
01:37:56,708 --> 01:37:58,333
conversations that didn't make it to the

2202
01:37:58,333 --> 01:38:01,833
public in this house.

2203
01:38:01,833 --> 01:38:05,375
But I can only conjecture and I think the

2204
01:38:05,375 --> 01:38:07,958
reason he told me that he's visiting

2205
01:38:07,958 --> 01:38:09,541
Boston, that he would be in the area and

2206
01:38:09,541 --> 01:38:12,833
wanted to see me is because,

2207
01:38:13,916 --> 01:38:16,375
you know, I use common sense. I don't

2208
01:38:16,375 --> 01:38:17,875
pretend to know more than I know. And I

2209
01:38:17,875 --> 01:38:19,875
use the scientific method, which is the

2210
01:38:19,875 --> 01:38:21,125
only way to make

2211
01:38:21,125 --> 01:38:23,083
progress, not using prejudice.

2212
01:38:23,083 --> 01:38:26,041
And I'm not worried about how many likes

2213
01:38:26,041 --> 01:38:28,166
I get. That's the other quality that you

2214
01:38:28,166 --> 01:38:30,125
must have because I get a lot of pushback

2215
01:38:30,125 --> 01:38:32,166
and personal attacks.

2216
01:38:32,166 --> 01:38:33,708
And by the way, the personal attacks,

2217
01:38:33,708 --> 01:38:37,250
most surprisingly, come mostly from the

2218
01:38:37,250 --> 01:38:39,333
SETI community. That was

2219
01:38:39,333 --> 01:38:40,458
really surprising to me.

2220
01:38:41,125 --> 01:38:44,958
And it's sort of it's akin to a cat that

2221
01:38:44,958 --> 01:38:48,958
is used to drinking cow milk and then

2222
01:38:48,958 --> 01:38:50,583
realizes that other people

2223
01:38:50,583 --> 01:38:52,333
are talking about almond milk.

2224
01:38:52,333 --> 01:38:57,416
And the cat says, I loathe the use of the

2225
01:38:57,416 --> 01:38:58,708
word milk in that context.

2226
01:38:59,625 --> 01:39:02,958
So, you know, the SETI community decided

2227
01:39:02,958 --> 01:39:07,375
to ban any lecture on objects near Earth

2228
01:39:07,375 --> 01:39:08,875
that could have originated from

2229
01:39:08,875 --> 01:39:12,916
extraterrestrial technological

2230
01:39:12,916 --> 01:39:15,125
civilization in their conferences.

2231
01:39:15,125 --> 01:39:17,250
And that was just a year and a half ago.

2232
01:39:17,250 --> 01:39:20,291
And that band was not lifted as far until

2233
01:39:20,291 --> 01:39:22,041
now and as far as I know.

2234
01:39:22,041 --> 01:39:24,666
And you ask yourself, why?

2235
01:39:24,958 --> 01:39:27,208
I mean, just think about people working

2236
01:39:27,208 --> 01:39:28,875
on the nature of dark matter. There are

2237
01:39:28,875 --> 01:39:32,791
people searching for weakly interacting

2238
01:39:32,791 --> 01:39:34,166
massive particles using the

2239
01:39:34,166 --> 01:39:36,875
Large Hadron Collider at CERN.

2240
01:39:36,875 --> 01:39:40,833
And imagine them saying, we ban any

2241
01:39:40,833 --> 01:39:44,500
discussion in our conferences on the dark

2242
01:39:44,500 --> 01:39:47,291
matter being potentially an axion, a very

2243
01:39:47,291 --> 01:39:48,958
lightweight particle that has nothing to

2244
01:39:48,958 --> 01:39:49,833
do with weakly

2245
01:39:49,833 --> 01:39:50,708
interacting massive particles.

2246
01:39:51,791 --> 01:39:53,500
Imagine them doing that. That would be

2247
01:39:53,500 --> 01:39:57,833
completely unprofessional. Why? Why is it

2248
01:39:57,833 --> 01:39:59,666
special in this case? Is it something

2249
01:39:59,666 --> 01:40:02,125
about the mirror that we're potentially

2250
01:40:02,125 --> 01:40:04,083
going to look back at if we see other

2251
01:40:04,083 --> 01:40:04,708
life or other consciousness out there?

2252
01:40:05,916 --> 01:40:12,583
No. Well, SETI was at the fringes of

2253
01:40:12,583 --> 01:40:15,791
astronomy for many decades and developed

2254
01:40:15,791 --> 01:40:17,958
this psychology of being apologetic for

2255
01:40:17,958 --> 01:40:19,791
doing what they're doing and getting a

2256
01:40:19,791 --> 01:40:21,625
little bit of funding from

2257
01:40:21,625 --> 01:40:22,708
the mainstream of astronomy.

2258
01:40:23,291 --> 01:40:28,166
Now, one thing that happened in the

2259
01:40:28,166 --> 01:40:30,958
background was all these unsubstantiated

2260
01:40:30,958 --> 01:40:34,541
claims by people in the general public

2261
01:40:34,541 --> 01:40:38,583
about visitation by aliens, abductions

2262
01:40:38,583 --> 01:40:43,791
and things that were not substantiated by

2263
01:40:43,791 --> 01:40:44,708
scientific evidence.

2264
01:40:44,958 --> 01:40:49,375
And as a result, a lot of scientists do

2265
01:40:49,375 --> 01:40:52,500
not want even to discuss that

2266
01:40:52,500 --> 01:40:54,333
possibility. And the SETI community lines

2267
01:40:54,333 --> 01:40:57,083
up with the mainstream on this so that

2268
01:40:57,083 --> 01:41:00,416
they would not lose the little bit of

2269
01:41:00,416 --> 01:41:01,375
allowance that they're given.

2270
01:41:02,500 --> 01:41:05,375
So I came into the scene

2271
01:41:05,375 --> 01:41:07,333
unapologetically. Why? Because I worked

2272
01:41:07,333 --> 01:41:10,166
on the nature of dark matter. And at the

2273
01:41:10,166 --> 01:41:13,125
time, we suggested all kinds of

2274
01:41:13,125 --> 01:41:14,875
possibilities and it was very much

2275
01:41:14,875 --> 01:41:17,416
encouraged to consider all possibilities

2276
01:41:17,416 --> 01:41:19,375
because they stimulate experimental work

2277
01:41:19,375 --> 01:41:20,333
and then we learned

2278
01:41:20,333 --> 01:41:21,708
something new as a result.

2279
01:41:21,875 --> 01:41:23,625
And so in this context, when the moon

2280
01:41:23,625 --> 01:41:25,958
came along, I said, well, maybe it's

2281
01:41:25,958 --> 01:41:28,791
artificial. That was an alternative. And

2282
01:41:28,791 --> 01:41:30,791
in my mind, it was just like suggesting

2283
01:41:30,791 --> 01:41:32,625
the dark matter is of specific types so

2284
01:41:32,625 --> 01:41:33,750
that experimentalists

2285
01:41:33,750 --> 01:41:36,041
can move on and check it.

2286
01:41:36,041 --> 01:41:37,916
So I suggested the moon might be

2287
01:41:37,916 --> 01:41:40,541
artificial so that we will next look for

2288
01:41:40,541 --> 01:41:43,583
other objects like it or look at the data

2289
01:41:43,583 --> 01:41:45,625
from it and try to figure it out.

2290
01:41:46,125 --> 01:41:49,250
Okay. And that sounded to me like a very

2291
01:41:49,250 --> 01:41:50,750
positive development in science because

2292
01:41:50,750 --> 01:41:52,083
when there is something anomalous, you

2293
01:41:52,083 --> 01:41:54,416
might learn something new. It may well be

2294
01:41:54,416 --> 01:41:55,666
a nitrogen iceberg, but

2295
01:41:55,666 --> 01:41:56,916
it may also be artificial.

2296
01:41:56,916 --> 01:42:00,125
So let's check. And that was part of the

2297
01:42:00,125 --> 01:42:01,791
scientific process that I'm used to from

2298
01:42:01,791 --> 01:42:03,875
cosmology about the dark matter and so

2299
01:42:03,875 --> 01:42:06,333
forth. And then suddenly I get hate

2300
01:42:06,333 --> 01:42:10,708
messages, you know, like arguing, you

2301
01:42:10,708 --> 01:42:11,750
know, you're pissing

2302
01:42:11,750 --> 01:42:13,708
us off with this thing.

2303
01:42:14,291 --> 01:42:17,791
And why did you write this book? And that

2304
01:42:17,791 --> 01:42:22,041
to me sounds unprofessional because the

2305
01:42:22,041 --> 01:42:23,375
way to figure it out is

2306
01:42:23,375 --> 01:42:24,333
through additional data.

2307
01:42:24,333 --> 01:42:27,000
Now, since I don't see others doing it,

2308
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:28,875
I'm a theoretical astrophysicist. I think

2309
01:42:28,875 --> 01:42:32,250
of ideas, you know, when I met John

2310
01:42:32,250 --> 01:42:34,208
Bacall for the first time, he said, what

2311
01:42:34,208 --> 01:42:35,708
kind of computer languages do you know?

2312
01:42:36,125 --> 01:42:38,166
And I said, well, I know just the very

2313
01:42:38,166 --> 01:42:41,708
basics because, you know, I only use

2314
01:42:41,708 --> 01:42:44,375
computers when I really need it.

2315
01:42:44,375 --> 01:42:46,708
And he said, how do you imagine having a

2316
01:42:46,708 --> 01:42:49,291
career in science with very limited

2317
01:42:49,291 --> 01:42:50,333
knowledge of computer science?

2318
01:42:50,333 --> 01:42:52,958
And I said, well, we'll see what happens.

2319
01:42:52,958 --> 01:42:55,333
And I've been able to pursue a very

2320
01:42:55,333 --> 01:42:58,000
successful career thanks to the fact that

2321
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:01,041
I have ideas or that seem to

2322
01:43:01,041 --> 01:43:03,583
me obvious and common sense.

2323
01:43:04,041 --> 01:43:06,875
But for some mysterious reasons, others

2324
01:43:06,875 --> 01:43:11,250
take a while before they realize that it

2325
01:43:11,250 --> 01:43:13,666
may be. And I noticed it on several

2326
01:43:13,666 --> 01:43:15,458
occasions when I proposed an idea that

2327
01:43:15,458 --> 01:43:17,250
people dismissed on the spot.

2328
01:43:17,250 --> 01:43:18,875
There were several such instances related

2329
01:43:18,875 --> 01:43:21,166
to black holes, related to the first

2330
01:43:21,166 --> 01:43:23,750
stars, and then it became the hottest

2331
01:43:23,750 --> 01:43:25,708
subject in their discipline.

2332
01:43:26,166 --> 01:43:29,250
And so that illustrated to me that how

2333
01:43:29,250 --> 01:43:31,791
narrow minded people are, those experts

2334
01:43:31,791 --> 01:43:35,458
that, you know, basically dig into a

2335
01:43:35,458 --> 01:43:39,000
subject very deep because they don't look

2336
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:43,458
sideways and they very often hit the

2337
01:43:43,458 --> 01:43:45,833
bedrock of their expertise

2338
01:43:45,833 --> 01:43:47,166
where nothing much happens.

2339
01:43:47,166 --> 01:43:50,666
And then they sort of do boring stuff on

2340
01:43:50,666 --> 01:43:52,166
things that we already know.

2341
01:43:52,166 --> 01:43:54,500
That's the life of an expert.

2342
01:43:55,500 --> 01:43:58,583
However, it's much more exciting to look

2343
01:43:58,583 --> 01:44:00,500
sideways and consider possibilities that

2344
01:44:00,500 --> 01:44:03,291
might be realized because if they do get

2345
01:44:03,291 --> 01:44:04,708
realized, it changes our

2346
01:44:04,708 --> 01:44:06,125
perspective about reality.

2347
01:44:06,125 --> 01:44:08,375
And those objects near Earth that look

2348
01:44:08,375 --> 01:44:09,875
weird are an opportunity to learn

2349
01:44:09,875 --> 01:44:11,958
something new. So I thought everyone

2350
01:44:11,958 --> 01:44:14,041
would accept that and

2351
01:44:14,041 --> 01:44:14,708
celebrate that and move on.

2352
01:44:15,458 --> 01:44:18,000
But since nobody is doing the follow up

2353
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:21,250
work of seeking evidence, I decided to

2354
01:44:21,250 --> 01:44:22,916
lead the Galileo Project. I'm a

2355
01:44:22,916 --> 01:44:24,208
theoretical astrophysicist and I'm

2356
01:44:24,208 --> 01:44:26,375
leading an experimental project.

2357
01:44:26,375 --> 01:44:30,458
And that to me is a way of educating two

2358
01:44:30,458 --> 01:44:32,708
communities. One is the general public

2359
01:44:32,708 --> 01:44:34,625
that speculates on the subject. There are

2360
01:44:34,625 --> 01:44:36,666
science fiction writers that imagine all

2361
01:44:36,666 --> 01:44:39,458
kinds of things and people claiming to

2362
01:44:39,458 --> 01:44:42,708
have seen anomalous things,

2363
01:44:43,541 --> 01:44:46,750
not in the scientific way. Okay, so to

2364
01:44:46,750 --> 01:44:49,708
them I have to explain that new physics

2365
01:44:49,708 --> 01:44:51,625
requires exquisite data. You can't just

2366
01:44:51,625 --> 01:44:54,875
argue it based on very poor data.

2367
01:44:54,875 --> 01:44:56,958
And then to the scientific community, I'm

2368
01:44:56,958 --> 01:44:59,583
trying to educate my colleagues that they

2369
01:44:59,583 --> 01:45:03,208
should be willing to explore the unknown

2370
01:45:03,208 --> 01:45:04,708
in a way that doesn't show prejudice.

2371
01:45:05,750 --> 01:45:09,166
And that is as challenging. So

2372
01:45:09,166 --> 01:45:12,791
altogether, I would argue, common sense

2373
01:45:12,791 --> 01:45:15,750
is not common. And it's just like in

2374
01:45:15,750 --> 01:45:16,291
politics, you have

2375
01:45:16,291 --> 01:45:17,291
people on the extremes.

2376
01:45:17,291 --> 01:45:20,625
And if you try to walk in the middle, in

2377
01:45:20,625 --> 01:45:24,791
a balanced way, it's not a path that is

2378
01:45:24,791 --> 01:45:27,458
very populated. And it's not easy because

2379
01:45:27,458 --> 01:45:28,708
you get attacked from both directions.

2380
01:45:29,833 --> 01:45:31,250
And one thing about the scientific

2381
01:45:31,250 --> 01:45:32,791
community, you might argue, okay, well,

2382
01:45:32,791 --> 01:45:35,541
maybe they represent sort of the

2383
01:45:35,541 --> 01:45:38,583
conservative view until proven wrong.

2384
01:45:38,583 --> 01:45:40,541
I don't think so because if you look at

2385
01:45:40,541 --> 01:45:43,291
theoretical physics over the past four

2386
01:45:43,291 --> 01:45:45,708
decades since I started,

2387
01:45:47,375 --> 01:45:52,000
the mainstream was engaged with string

2388
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:53,791
theory in extra dimensions that were

2389
01:45:53,791 --> 01:45:55,708
never verified experimentally that might

2390
01:45:55,708 --> 01:45:58,666
not be verified in our lifetime.

2391
01:45:58,666 --> 01:46:03,250
And they just do mathematical gymnastics

2392
01:46:03,250 --> 01:46:06,458
and talk about concepts that exist in

2393
01:46:06,458 --> 01:46:08,875
extra dimensions that we cannot test

2394
01:46:08,875 --> 01:46:10,500
experimentally, we cannot falsify.

2395
01:46:11,125 --> 01:46:13,291
And in fact, there are many versions of

2396
01:46:13,291 --> 01:46:15,041
the theory, we don't know which one is

2397
01:46:15,041 --> 01:46:21,291
correct. Okay, so it's just like meeting

2398
01:46:21,291 --> 01:46:23,875
someone who claims that he is a plumber.

2399
01:46:23,875 --> 01:46:26,250
Okay. And you say, okay, can you fix my

2400
01:46:26,250 --> 01:46:30,583
toilet? And he says, that sounds too

2401
01:46:30,583 --> 01:46:31,583
complicated. I can't do that.

2402
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:33,875
So he said, okay, well, maybe you can fix

2403
01:46:33,875 --> 01:46:37,291
my faucet. And this person says, I don't

2404
01:46:37,291 --> 01:46:39,583
think so. It's really complicated. But,

2405
01:46:39,583 --> 01:46:42,750
but if you put goggles on your head and

2406
01:46:42,750 --> 01:46:45,916
go to the metaverse, then you will see me

2407
01:46:45,916 --> 01:46:48,583
there solving all your plumbing problems.

2408
01:46:49,708 --> 01:46:51,708
Now, putting goggles on the head is

2409
01:46:51,708 --> 01:46:53,500
equivalent to going into a virtual

2410
01:46:53,500 --> 01:46:54,916
reality that we cannot test

2411
01:46:54,916 --> 01:46:56,791
experimentally. And that's what the

2412
01:46:56,791 --> 01:46:58,791
string theorists are doing. They're

2413
01:46:58,791 --> 01:47:02,416
saying just imagine extra dimensions that

2414
01:47:02,416 --> 01:47:04,083
we haven't found that we

2415
01:47:04,083 --> 01:47:06,208
cannot do experiments in.

2416
01:47:06,208 --> 01:47:09,666
And in that, we can solve some equations.

2417
01:47:09,666 --> 01:47:11,833
But I asked them, okay, what happened

2418
01:47:11,833 --> 01:47:13,583
before the Big Bang? And they

2419
01:47:13,583 --> 01:47:15,708
say, that's too complicated.

2420
01:47:16,291 --> 01:47:18,416
What happens in the center of a black

2421
01:47:18,416 --> 01:47:22,625
hole? We can't deal with that. So I rest

2422
01:47:22,625 --> 01:47:24,625
my case. There's no predictive power in

2423
01:47:24,625 --> 01:47:27,083
there. Well, the issue is falsifiability.

2424
01:47:27,083 --> 01:47:29,041
Unless you put your ideas under the

2425
01:47:29,041 --> 01:47:32,500
guillotine of experiments, you will never

2426
01:47:32,500 --> 01:47:33,208
know if they're right.

2427
01:47:33,208 --> 01:47:35,375
You can spend your life imagining things.

2428
01:47:35,375 --> 01:47:37,500
Let me give you an example. I was at the

2429
01:47:37,500 --> 01:47:39,916
lunch with a very

2430
01:47:39,916 --> 01:47:41,708
distinguished string theorist.

2431
01:47:42,291 --> 01:47:47,458
A few months ago, and I asked him, what

2432
01:47:47,458 --> 01:47:49,416
is your most important paper, scientific

2433
01:47:49,416 --> 01:47:52,208
paper? And he said it

2434
01:47:52,208 --> 01:47:54,500
was about supersymmetry.

2435
01:47:55,625 --> 01:48:00,791
And I just realized, why is he so proud

2436
01:48:00,791 --> 01:48:02,750
of this paper? After all, the Large

2437
01:48:02,750 --> 01:48:06,166
Hadron Collider looked for supersymmetry

2438
01:48:06,166 --> 01:48:09,458
in the most natural range of parameters

2439
01:48:09,458 --> 01:48:12,333
and didn't find it. So it's ruled out.

2440
01:48:12,333 --> 01:48:14,750
We don't know if it exists. If it exists,

2441
01:48:14,750 --> 01:48:16,625
it exists in a different range of

2442
01:48:16,625 --> 01:48:19,666
parameters. That was not the natural one.

2443
01:48:20,458 --> 01:48:23,083
And yet this person, this scientist is

2444
01:48:23,083 --> 01:48:25,791
proud of this paper. So that reminded me

2445
01:48:25,791 --> 01:48:28,958
of the Lubavitch community in Brooklyn.

2446
01:48:28,958 --> 01:48:32,291
They believed that their rabbi is the

2447
01:48:32,291 --> 01:48:36,125
Messiah. So they actually built a replica

2448
01:48:36,125 --> 01:48:40,375
of his apartment in Brooklyn and placed

2449
01:48:40,375 --> 01:48:43,333
it in Israel because the Messiah is

2450
01:48:43,333 --> 01:48:46,416
supposed to arrive after he dies,

2451
01:48:46,416 --> 01:48:48,708
supposed to get to Israel.

2452
01:48:49,625 --> 01:48:51,833
And they wanted him to find the toilets.

2453
01:48:51,833 --> 01:48:53,833
So they built a replica of his home in

2454
01:48:53,833 --> 01:48:57,166
Brooklyn of the apartment in Israel. They

2455
01:48:57,166 --> 01:49:02,250
so much believed in it. And then he died.

2456
01:49:02,250 --> 01:49:05,166
So that was an empirical fact. He died

2457
01:49:05,166 --> 01:49:07,291
just like the experiment by the Large

2458
01:49:07,291 --> 01:49:08,958
Hadron Collider. Super Symmetry is not

2459
01:49:08,958 --> 01:49:11,375
there. The rabbi died and

2460
01:49:11,375 --> 01:49:12,708
didn't come back as a Messiah.

2461
01:49:13,750 --> 01:49:16,208
Time for a new hypothesis. No. What they

2462
01:49:16,208 --> 01:49:20,458
said is we just need to wait. What did

2463
01:49:20,458 --> 01:49:23,041
this string theory say? We just need to

2464
01:49:23,041 --> 01:49:24,708
wait for the next accelerator.

2465
01:49:25,791 --> 01:49:33,333
So I asked you for 40 years, working on

2466
01:49:33,333 --> 01:49:37,208
extra dimensions, the multiverse ideas

2467
01:49:37,208 --> 01:49:40,750
that cannot be tested. And then when one

2468
01:49:40,750 --> 01:49:44,666
aspect of your castle is being tested,

2469
01:49:44,666 --> 01:49:45,708
it's not being found.

2470
01:49:45,791 --> 01:49:45,958
You're not going to be able to see the

2471
01:49:45,958 --> 01:49:48,291
symmetry. And yet you are proud of that.

2472
01:49:48,291 --> 01:49:50,416
And you say we just need to wait. How is

2473
01:49:50,416 --> 01:49:54,750
that different from a religious belief?

2474
01:49:54,750 --> 01:49:56,791
So what's going to fill the gap then?

2475
01:49:56,791 --> 01:50:00,958
Experiments. As far as extra dimensions?

2476
01:50:00,958 --> 01:50:02,416
Well, to fill the gap

2477
01:50:02,416 --> 01:50:04,083
from string theory, right?

2478
01:50:04,958 --> 01:50:07,083
I offered some of my colleagues that work

2479
01:50:07,083 --> 01:50:08,541
on string theory to test their theory.

2480
01:50:08,541 --> 01:50:10,875
They just need to get into a black hole.

2481
01:50:10,875 --> 01:50:12,625
And near the singularity, the curvature

2482
01:50:12,625 --> 01:50:14,583
of space time is so large

2483
01:50:14,583 --> 01:50:17,250
that they can test their theory.

2484
01:50:17,250 --> 01:50:19,708
But one of them said that I have an

2485
01:50:19,708 --> 01:50:21,041
ulterior motive of

2486
01:50:21,041 --> 01:50:22,958
sending them into a black hole.

2487
01:50:25,083 --> 01:50:27,208
Can we simulate any type of event horizon

2488
01:50:27,208 --> 01:50:29,250
with entropy or temperature or some type

2489
01:50:29,250 --> 01:50:31,958
of isolation and experiment with some of

2490
01:50:31,958 --> 01:50:35,083
the mechanics around an event horizon or

2491
01:50:35,083 --> 01:50:37,208
a black hole more specifically in a lab?

2492
01:50:37,208 --> 01:50:41,958
Yeah. So there are lab experiments that

2493
01:50:41,958 --> 01:50:43,958
produce environments analogous to a black

2494
01:50:43,958 --> 01:50:45,625
hole, but it's not a black hole because a

2495
01:50:45,625 --> 01:50:47,458
black hole is defined

2496
01:50:47,458 --> 01:50:48,708
by a curved space time.

2497
01:50:49,333 --> 01:50:51,916
That was the innovation of Albert

2498
01:50:51,916 --> 01:50:55,916
Einstein. What they do in the lab is

2499
01:50:55,916 --> 01:50:59,375
having some fluid mechanics that instead

2500
01:50:59,375 --> 01:51:04,791
of the speed of light, you represent

2501
01:51:04,791 --> 01:51:06,333
light by sound waves.

2502
01:51:06,333 --> 01:51:07,833
And there is a speed of sound and you

2503
01:51:07,833 --> 01:51:09,708
have a horizon of that and then you see

2504
01:51:09,708 --> 01:51:11,458
some effects related, but

2505
01:51:11,458 --> 01:51:12,708
it's not really gravity.

2506
01:51:13,333 --> 01:51:18,416
And the way Einstein, the pioneering idea

2507
01:51:18,416 --> 01:51:21,416
that Einstein had was based on Galileo.

2508
01:51:21,416 --> 01:51:23,791
Galileo realized that all objects fall

2509
01:51:23,791 --> 01:51:25,291
the same way under the

2510
01:51:25,291 --> 01:51:26,458
influence of gravity.

2511
01:51:26,458 --> 01:51:28,333
In fact, there was an astronaut that went

2512
01:51:28,333 --> 01:51:31,291
to the moon and since there is no

2513
01:51:31,291 --> 01:51:34,541
atmosphere there, he dropped a hammer and

2514
01:51:34,541 --> 01:51:37,625
a feather and they arrived to the ground

2515
01:51:37,625 --> 01:51:38,583
exactly at the same time.

2516
01:51:39,791 --> 01:51:42,791
In air, of course, there is friction that

2517
01:51:42,791 --> 01:51:43,458
prevents the feather

2518
01:51:43,458 --> 01:51:45,166
from falling as fast.

2519
01:51:45,166 --> 01:51:48,041
But that was the realization that Galileo

2520
01:51:48,041 --> 01:51:50,958
Galilei had in Pisa.

2521
01:51:50,958 --> 01:51:54,083
And by the way, I was invited for four

2522
01:51:54,083 --> 01:51:56,208
lectures at the Cool Normal Superior.

2523
01:51:56,208 --> 01:51:57,166
They were called

2524
01:51:57,166 --> 01:52:00,291
"Galleleo Cathedra Galileo".

2525
01:52:00,291 --> 01:52:01,916
That was my first introduction to

2526
01:52:01,916 --> 01:52:03,708
Galileo. It was about a decade ago.

2527
01:52:03,791 --> 01:52:06,458
I was the... They have it as a very

2528
01:52:06,458 --> 01:52:09,625
special event every several years. And

2529
01:52:09,625 --> 01:52:11,791
that is the most prestigious institution

2530
01:52:11,791 --> 01:52:14,916
for science in Italy.

2531
01:52:14,916 --> 01:52:17,208
And thinking back, my connection to

2532
01:52:17,208 --> 01:52:19,750
Galileo started long ago, actually.

2533
01:52:22,208 --> 01:52:27,166
And by the way, when "Oumuamua", the

2534
01:52:27,166 --> 01:52:31,333
paper about it came out and I went just a

2535
01:52:31,333 --> 01:52:34,791
few days later to an event in Berlin.

2536
01:52:34,791 --> 01:52:39,666
And there were so many reporters as I

2537
01:52:39,666 --> 01:52:42,250
arrived there wanting to speak with me.

2538
01:52:42,250 --> 01:52:43,333
They put everyone in one

2539
01:52:43,333 --> 01:52:44,708
room, like tens of reporters.

2540
01:52:45,166 --> 01:52:47,708
And an Italian reporter from the back of

2541
01:52:47,708 --> 01:52:50,000
the room shouted, "Do you think you are

2542
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:51,916
Galileo?" And I said, "No, I'm not

2543
01:52:51,916 --> 01:52:52,875
pretending to be anyone.

2544
01:52:52,875 --> 01:52:55,375
I'm just talking about what I

2545
01:52:55,375 --> 01:52:57,708
think this object might be."

2546
01:52:57,708 --> 01:53:00,375
And of course, any discovery of a relic

2547
01:53:00,375 --> 01:53:01,958
from an extraterrestrial civilization

2548
01:53:01,958 --> 01:53:04,000
would be the most significant discovery

2549
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:04,708
that humanity ever made.

2550
01:53:05,333 --> 01:53:10,291
So in a way, it will be just like the

2551
01:53:10,291 --> 01:53:13,458
Copernican Revolution, except this time

2552
01:53:13,458 --> 01:53:15,333
it's not about our physical place in the

2553
01:53:15,333 --> 01:53:16,333
universe, but our

2554
01:53:16,333 --> 01:53:19,666
intellectual space in the universe.

2555
01:53:19,666 --> 01:53:23,250
Anyway, coming back to

2556
01:53:23,250 --> 01:53:25,708
the issue of gravity.

2557
01:53:27,333 --> 01:53:30,166
So Albert Einstein realized that if all

2558
01:53:30,166 --> 01:53:31,791
objects fall the same way under the

2559
01:53:31,791 --> 01:53:34,291
influence of gravity, perhaps it's a

2560
01:53:34,291 --> 01:53:36,166
property of space and time because they

2561
01:53:36,166 --> 01:53:38,666
all respond to the same space-time.

2562
01:53:38,666 --> 01:53:41,666
And so he suggested that the curvature of

2563
01:53:41,666 --> 01:53:44,875
space and time is gravity.

2564
01:53:44,875 --> 01:53:46,958
So space and time are not flat, the way

2565
01:53:46,958 --> 01:53:47,708
Newton thought about them.

2566
01:53:48,458 --> 01:53:50,666
And if you think about the sun, it curves

2567
01:53:50,666 --> 01:53:53,333
space-time just like a bowling ball that

2568
01:53:53,333 --> 01:53:56,333
you put in the middle of a trampoline.

2569
01:53:56,333 --> 01:53:58,833
So there is a rubber surface and the

2570
01:53:58,833 --> 01:54:01,333
bowling ball stretches the rubber

2571
01:54:01,333 --> 01:54:03,208
surface, makes it curved.

2572
01:54:03,208 --> 01:54:05,166
And so if you put a marble and give it a

2573
01:54:05,166 --> 01:54:07,125
kick at the right speed, it will move in

2574
01:54:07,125 --> 01:54:09,708
a circle around the bowling ball, right?

2575
01:54:10,416 --> 01:54:13,083
And on the trampoline. But now if you

2576
01:54:13,083 --> 01:54:15,541
remove the bowling ball and the

2577
01:54:15,541 --> 01:54:18,750
trampoline surface would be flat, this

2578
01:54:18,750 --> 01:54:21,666
same marble will move in a straight line.

2579
01:54:21,666 --> 01:54:24,250
In the same way, the Earth moves around

2580
01:54:24,250 --> 01:54:26,916
the sun in a circle under the influence

2581
01:54:26,916 --> 01:54:27,833
of gravity because it

2582
01:54:27,833 --> 01:54:29,583
has just the right speed.

2583
01:54:29,583 --> 01:54:34,291
It was created from a disk of gas debris

2584
01:54:34,291 --> 01:54:35,750
from the formation process of the sun

2585
01:54:35,750 --> 01:54:36,666
that was orbiting

2586
01:54:36,666 --> 01:54:37,708
around the sun in circles.

2587
01:54:38,583 --> 01:54:40,958
And the Earth condensed out of that and

2588
01:54:40,958 --> 01:54:43,041
therefore it moves in a circle.

2589
01:54:43,041 --> 01:54:45,666
But if you were to remove the sun, just

2590
01:54:45,666 --> 01:54:47,125
like with the bowling ball, the Earth

2591
01:54:47,125 --> 01:54:48,041
would continue on a

2592
01:54:48,041 --> 01:54:51,625
straight line like the marble does.

2593
01:54:51,625 --> 01:54:54,625
So that was Einstein's insight that

2594
01:54:54,625 --> 01:54:56,583
gravity is not a force, it's actually the

2595
01:54:56,583 --> 01:54:58,583
curvature of space and time.

2596
01:54:58,583 --> 01:55:01,166
And a black hole represents that to the

2597
01:55:01,166 --> 01:55:03,416
extreme in the sense that as soon as

2598
01:55:03,416 --> 01:55:04,333
Einstein came up with

2599
01:55:04,333 --> 01:55:05,666
his theory of gravity,

2600
01:55:06,625 --> 01:55:09,791
within a few months he received the

2601
01:55:09,791 --> 01:55:11,208
solution to his equations that he

2602
01:55:11,208 --> 01:55:13,583
couldn't derive, a fully non-linear

2603
01:55:13,583 --> 01:55:14,666
solution, a complete

2604
01:55:14,666 --> 01:55:16,000
solution to his equations.

2605
01:55:16,000 --> 01:55:19,375
It was derived by a physicist, an

2606
01:55:19,375 --> 01:55:20,791
astronomer named Carl

2607
01:55:20,791 --> 01:55:23,083
Schwarzschild, who was also Jewish.

2608
01:55:23,083 --> 01:55:24,791
But the difference between Einstein and

2609
01:55:24,791 --> 01:55:27,000
Schwarzschild is that Schwarzschild was a

2610
01:55:27,000 --> 01:55:29,416
patriot. Einstein was a pacifist.

2611
01:55:30,041 --> 01:55:31,666
And Carl Schwarzschild was the director

2612
01:55:31,666 --> 01:55:37,333
of the Potsdam Observatory and in 1915

2613
01:55:37,333 --> 01:55:39,458
decided to volunteer to take

2614
01:55:39,458 --> 01:55:41,083
part in the First World War,

2615
01:55:41,083 --> 01:55:43,708
to go to the front against the Russians.

2616
01:55:44,333 --> 01:55:51,833
And from there he wrote three important

2617
01:55:51,833 --> 01:55:57,500
papers and then died in the middle of

2618
01:55:57,500 --> 01:56:00,416
1916, so shortly afterwards.

2619
01:56:00,416 --> 01:56:02,208
But Einstein received a postcard from

2620
01:56:02,208 --> 01:56:04,291
Schwarzschild that had a solution to his

2621
01:56:04,291 --> 01:56:06,583
equations of a point mass, which is what

2622
01:56:06,583 --> 01:56:07,708
we now call a black hole.

2623
01:56:08,083 --> 01:56:09,750
Basically, if you take the mass, for

2624
01:56:09,750 --> 01:56:13,166
example, of a star and the star consumes

2625
01:56:13,166 --> 01:56:15,500
all of its nuclear fuel, because it's

2626
01:56:15,500 --> 01:56:16,625
basically a nuclear reactor.

2627
01:56:16,625 --> 01:56:18,416
You can think of the Sun as a nuclear

2628
01:56:18,416 --> 01:56:19,625
reactor held together

2629
01:56:19,625 --> 01:56:21,666
by gravity. That's all.

2630
01:56:21,666 --> 01:56:24,041
And once the fuel in the nuclear reactor

2631
01:56:24,041 --> 01:56:27,708
is exhausted, by the way, the Sun is

2632
01:56:27,708 --> 01:56:30,291
seven billion years away from that fate

2633
01:56:30,291 --> 01:56:31,708
of exhausting its nuclear fuel.

2634
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:34,583
So roughly in the middle of its lifespan,

2635
01:56:34,583 --> 01:56:37,958
it's 4.6 billion years old and it has

2636
01:56:37,958 --> 01:56:41,458
seven billion years to go or so.

2637
01:56:41,458 --> 01:56:45,125
Once it consumes its nuclear fuel, it

2638
01:56:45,125 --> 01:56:47,833
contracts under gravity. The Sun doesn't

2639
01:56:47,833 --> 01:56:50,458
have a large mass, so it will become a

2640
01:56:50,458 --> 01:56:56,208
solid metal, basically,

2641
01:56:56,208 --> 01:56:58,333
which is called the white dwarf that is

2642
01:56:58,333 --> 01:57:00,041
roughly the size of the Earth.

2643
01:57:00,041 --> 01:57:00,708
Stabilized at some point?

2644
01:57:01,375 --> 01:57:06,250
Yeah, it will contract until the

2645
01:57:06,250 --> 01:57:07,958
Heisenberg uncertainty principle of

2646
01:57:07,958 --> 01:57:10,708
quantum mechanics will prevent electrons

2647
01:57:10,708 --> 01:57:12,458
from overlapping anymore.

2648
01:57:12,458 --> 01:57:14,166
So there would be a maximum density and

2649
01:57:14,166 --> 01:57:15,291
that's called the white dwarf.

2650
01:57:15,291 --> 01:57:17,875
It's basically a piece of metal the size

2651
01:57:17,875 --> 01:57:21,000
of the Earth with about 60%, two thirds

2652
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:23,166
of the mass of the Sun in it.

2653
01:57:23,166 --> 01:57:23,708
That's the fate of the Sun.

2654
01:57:24,291 --> 01:57:26,833
We see a lot of white dwarfs, almost as

2655
01:57:26,833 --> 01:57:29,875
many as stars like the Sun because most

2656
01:57:29,875 --> 01:57:32,625
of the Sun-like stars formed billions of

2657
01:57:32,625 --> 01:57:33,291
years before the Sun.

2658
01:57:33,291 --> 01:57:36,083
By now they died and those civilizations

2659
01:57:36,083 --> 01:57:38,333
are somewhere else, by the way. However,

2660
01:57:38,333 --> 01:57:43,458
their star became basically a metallic

2661
01:57:43,458 --> 01:57:46,916
object the size of the Earth with 60% of

2662
01:57:46,916 --> 01:57:48,208
the mass of the Sun and

2663
01:57:48,208 --> 01:57:49,708
the rest was dispersed.

2664
01:57:50,750 --> 01:57:52,250
So that's what would happen to the Sun.

2665
01:57:52,250 --> 01:57:54,916
But if you now take a star that has tens

2666
01:57:54,916 --> 01:57:57,375
of times the mass of the Sun, there is so

2667
01:57:57,375 --> 01:57:59,416
much gravity that the core of

2668
01:57:59,416 --> 01:58:01,833
the star makes a black hole.

2669
01:58:01,833 --> 01:58:04,541
And in fact, we see the events of the

2670
01:58:04,541 --> 01:58:06,833
formation of a black hole from the edge

2671
01:58:06,833 --> 01:58:08,875
of the universe because when this process

2672
01:58:08,875 --> 01:58:09,791
takes place and the

2673
01:58:09,791 --> 01:58:10,708
core of a star collapses,

2674
01:58:12,000 --> 01:58:14,958
some of the material is spewed out,

2675
01:58:14,958 --> 01:58:18,416
ejected into jets that drill a hole

2676
01:58:18,416 --> 01:58:20,333
through the envelope of the star.

2677
01:58:20,333 --> 01:58:22,500
And if we happen to be aligned with those

2678
01:58:22,500 --> 01:58:25,458
jets, we see so-called gamma ray flashes

2679
01:58:25,458 --> 01:58:27,041
or gamma ray bursts from

2680
01:58:27,041 --> 01:58:28,125
the edge of the universe.

2681
01:58:28,125 --> 01:58:29,916
This is another discovery that the US

2682
01:58:29,916 --> 01:58:32,458
government made first because they put

2683
01:58:32,458 --> 01:58:34,333
satellites to look for gamma rays from

2684
01:58:34,333 --> 01:58:37,250
nuclear explosions by the Soviets to make

2685
01:58:37,250 --> 01:58:38,708
sure that the Soviets do not

2686
01:58:40,500 --> 01:58:42,916
explode above the atmosphere. There was a

2687
01:58:42,916 --> 01:58:46,666
ban on the treaty to ban such explosions.

2688
01:58:46,666 --> 01:58:47,875
But the US wanted to make

2689
01:58:47,875 --> 01:58:49,000
sure that there aren't any.

2690
01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:53,375
So they put these gamma ray sensors above

2691
01:58:53,375 --> 01:58:55,875
the atmosphere and every

2692
01:58:55,875 --> 01:58:58,000
few days they saw something.

2693
01:58:58,000 --> 01:58:59,666
And I'm sure in the first few days in

2694
01:58:59,666 --> 01:59:01,500
Washington DC probably there was a lot of

2695
01:59:01,500 --> 01:59:03,625
alarm, but then they realized no, it

2696
01:59:03,625 --> 01:59:04,708
can't be the Russians.

2697
01:59:05,083 --> 01:59:06,875
And then the group in Los Alamos said,

2698
01:59:06,875 --> 01:59:10,291
well, it's actually coming from far away

2699
01:59:10,291 --> 01:59:12,166
based on the fact that the sources of the

2700
01:59:12,166 --> 01:59:14,958
gamma rays moved on the sky in the way

2701
01:59:14,958 --> 01:59:18,291
that you expect from a very distant.

2702
01:59:18,291 --> 01:59:19,750
And these are pulsars?

2703
01:59:19,750 --> 01:59:22,750
No. So at first people said, well, you

2704
01:59:22,750 --> 01:59:26,041
know, let's put them in our galaxy

2705
01:59:26,041 --> 01:59:27,458
because then you don't need as much

2706
01:59:27,458 --> 01:59:29,708
energy if they are relatively nearby.

2707
01:59:30,916 --> 01:59:34,833
But then it was realized that they are

2708
01:59:34,833 --> 01:59:38,750
distributed roughly uniformly around us.

2709
01:59:38,750 --> 01:59:42,583
And the less popular view was, oh, maybe

2710
01:59:42,583 --> 01:59:44,416
they come from the universe at large.

2711
01:59:44,416 --> 01:59:46,958
The more popular view was, oh, they come

2712
01:59:46,958 --> 01:59:48,208
from far away in the galaxy,

2713
01:59:48,208 --> 01:59:49,708
like the hell of the galaxy.

2714
01:59:49,708 --> 01:59:50,708
That was the popular view.

2715
01:59:51,833 --> 01:59:54,916
And NASA built, invested in a gamma ray

2716
01:59:54,916 --> 01:59:58,750
telescope to resolve the distance puzzle

2717
01:59:58,750 --> 01:59:59,833
of gamma ray bursts.

2718
01:59:59,833 --> 02:00:03,958
And they put state of the art gamma ray

2719
02:00:03,958 --> 02:00:07,458
sensors, but dismissed a suggestion to

2720
02:00:07,458 --> 02:00:09,916
put an X-ray sensor.

2721
02:00:09,916 --> 02:00:14,291
And the Italians and the Swiss for a much

2722
02:00:14,291 --> 02:00:15,208
lower budget said,

2723
02:00:15,208 --> 02:00:16,708
let's put an X-ray sensor.

2724
02:00:17,041 --> 02:00:18,916
That was on a Bepos-Sachs

2725
02:00:18,916 --> 02:00:20,833
mission that they launched.

2726
02:00:20,833 --> 02:00:22,583
And they were the ones to make the big

2727
02:00:22,583 --> 02:00:26,500
discovery in 1997 that they saw an X-ray

2728
02:00:26,500 --> 02:00:28,916
flash coming from a gamma ray burst.

2729
02:00:28,916 --> 02:00:31,708
And the gamma rays are so few.

2730
02:00:31,708 --> 02:00:32,958
There are so few photons.

2731
02:00:32,958 --> 02:00:35,166
You can't localize the event with gamma

2732
02:00:35,166 --> 02:00:37,791
ray telescopes very well.

2733
02:00:37,791 --> 02:00:40,041
But in X-rays, they could localize it and

2734
02:00:40,041 --> 02:00:41,416
see that there is a galaxy

2735
02:00:41,416 --> 02:00:42,708
sitting on top very far away.

2736
02:00:42,708 --> 02:00:44,500
So they could tell the distance.

2737
02:00:45,000 --> 02:00:47,000
But they implied that gamma ray bursts

2738
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:49,000
are at cosmological distances.

2739
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:51,416
And they release as much energy in the

2740
02:00:51,416 --> 02:00:54,791
jet as you find in supernova explosions.

2741
02:00:54,791 --> 02:00:56,958
So that was a realization.

2742
02:00:56,958 --> 02:00:57,625
Once again, it shows

2743
02:00:57,625 --> 02:00:58,708
you how science is done.

2744
02:00:58,708 --> 02:01:00,083
It's done by iterations.

2745
02:01:00,083 --> 02:01:01,541
People make mistakes along the way.

2746
02:01:01,541 --> 02:01:03,291
And we need to accept that because that's

2747
02:01:03,291 --> 02:01:05,333
the only way, if you don't take risks,

2748
02:01:05,333 --> 02:01:08,166
you will never make discoveries.

2749
02:01:08,166 --> 02:01:10,791
And people that are risk averse, those

2750
02:01:10,791 --> 02:01:12,458
experts, quote-unquote, that do not want

2751
02:01:12,458 --> 02:01:13,708
to risk their reputation,

2752
02:01:14,625 --> 02:01:16,666
they reduce their chances of making an

2753
02:01:16,666 --> 02:01:19,666
important revelation, pushing our

2754
02:01:19,666 --> 02:01:21,875
scientific knowledge.

2755
02:01:21,875 --> 02:01:25,166
So now we can see those events that give

2756
02:01:25,166 --> 02:01:26,125
birth to black holes at

2757
02:01:26,125 --> 02:01:28,500
the edge of the universe.

2758
02:01:28,500 --> 02:01:29,250
So I was going to interrupt you.

2759
02:01:29,250 --> 02:01:30,833
I was going to ask, do you think we're on

2760
02:01:30,833 --> 02:01:33,875
the precipice of a paradigm change?

2761
02:01:33,875 --> 02:01:34,583
Yes.

2762
02:01:34,583 --> 02:01:37,583
But I think it requires hard work in

2763
02:01:37,583 --> 02:01:38,708
terms of getting evidence and data.

2764
02:01:39,500 --> 02:01:42,666
You know, the philosopher Schopenhauer

2765
02:01:42,666 --> 02:01:47,958
said that there are three phases for

2766
02:01:47,958 --> 02:01:50,000
truth to be unraveled.

2767
02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:52,208
And that is definitely true in science.

2768
02:01:52,208 --> 02:01:54,208
The first phase is one in

2769
02:01:54,208 --> 02:01:57,250
which the truth is ridiculed.

2770
02:01:57,250 --> 02:01:58,625
And obviously in the case of Gallivier,

2771
02:01:58,625 --> 02:02:00,500
we know that was the case.

2772
02:02:00,500 --> 02:02:03,750
In the case of UAP and more potentially,

2773
02:02:03,750 --> 02:02:04,833
or interstellar objects

2774
02:02:04,833 --> 02:02:05,708
being of artificial origin,

2775
02:02:06,500 --> 02:02:10,291
it was the case initially, you know, that

2776
02:02:10,291 --> 02:02:12,500
conversation was ridiculed.

2777
02:02:12,500 --> 02:02:17,333
The second phase is one in which people

2778
02:02:17,333 --> 02:02:18,708
find it necessary to

2779
02:02:18,708 --> 02:02:21,958
argue that it's wrong.

2780
02:02:21,958 --> 02:02:24,333
And I got an email last week from someone

2781
02:02:24,333 --> 02:02:25,666
who congratulated me for

2782
02:02:25,666 --> 02:02:27,083
getting to the second phase,

2783
02:02:27,083 --> 02:02:29,208
because there was this nature paper

2784
02:02:29,208 --> 02:02:31,791
trying to argue that UOMU was a hydrogen

2785
02:02:31,791 --> 02:02:32,666
iceberg and so forth.

2786
02:02:33,416 --> 02:02:36,250
So people argue that it's wrong.

2787
02:02:36,250 --> 02:02:38,583
The third phase is one in which the

2788
02:02:38,583 --> 02:02:41,500
evidence is so clear that people say, oh,

2789
02:02:41,500 --> 02:02:43,583
obviously it's self-evident.

2790
02:02:43,583 --> 02:02:47,291
And in fact, when that will happen, if

2791
02:02:47,291 --> 02:02:49,125
that will happen in the context of

2792
02:02:49,125 --> 02:02:50,208
objects from a

2793
02:02:50,208 --> 02:02:53,500
technological origin near Earth,

2794
02:02:53,500 --> 02:02:56,250
then I'm quite confident that the SETI

2795
02:02:56,250 --> 02:02:59,583
community will say, oh, this idea was

2796
02:02:59,583 --> 02:03:00,708
discussed for decades.

2797
02:03:01,208 --> 02:03:02,916
It was obviously a

2798
02:03:02,916 --> 02:03:04,583
possibility for all of us.

2799
02:03:04,583 --> 02:03:05,500
There is nothing

2800
02:03:05,500 --> 02:03:08,291
really new in this finding.

2801
02:03:08,291 --> 02:03:11,250
And we said it first.

2802
02:03:11,250 --> 02:03:13,583
That would not surprise me.

2803
02:03:13,583 --> 02:03:14,833
There is an interesting

2804
02:03:14,833 --> 02:03:17,833
anecdote about black holes.

2805
02:03:17,833 --> 02:03:19,875
Under us, where we sit right now, there

2806
02:03:19,875 --> 02:03:21,708
is a basement, a very

2807
02:03:21,708 --> 02:03:23,791
big basement of my home.

2808
02:03:23,791 --> 02:03:25,833
And my home is old.

2809
02:03:25,833 --> 02:03:28,375
And at some point a decade ago, the

2810
02:03:28,375 --> 02:03:29,666
basement was flooded.

2811
02:03:32,083 --> 02:03:35,500
And a plumber came over and I went with

2812
02:03:35,500 --> 02:03:36,791
him to the basement,

2813
02:03:36,791 --> 02:03:38,458
and we realized that the

2814
02:03:38,458 --> 02:03:42,791
sewer is clogged by tree roots.

2815
02:03:42,791 --> 02:03:44,666
And it took a while for

2816
02:03:44,666 --> 02:03:46,583
us to fix the problem.

2817
02:03:46,583 --> 02:03:50,208
And during those hours when we had our

2818
02:03:50,208 --> 02:03:51,583
conversations, and this was a real

2819
02:03:51,583 --> 02:03:54,458
plumber, he actually solved the problem.

2820
02:03:54,458 --> 02:03:55,708
A caveat.

2821
02:03:56,750 --> 02:03:58,916
During those hours, well, first he told

2822
02:03:58,916 --> 02:04:00,875
me about his personal life.

2823
02:04:00,875 --> 02:04:04,250
I really, you know, I have no hierarchy

2824
02:04:04,250 --> 02:04:06,875
in terms of people I speak with, and I

2825
02:04:06,875 --> 02:04:08,500
enjoy conversations.

2826
02:04:08,500 --> 02:04:11,083
And, you know, I don't pay more attention

2827
02:04:11,083 --> 02:04:12,375
to senior colleagues

2828
02:04:12,375 --> 02:04:14,291
than to junior colleagues.

2829
02:04:14,291 --> 02:04:16,708
And the plumber was as interesting as my

2830
02:04:16,708 --> 02:04:18,750
colleagues in academia.

2831
02:04:18,750 --> 02:04:22,375
And during that conversation I realized,

2832
02:04:22,375 --> 02:04:24,708
well, isn't that similar to what happens

2833
02:04:25,291 --> 02:04:27,708
near the center of a black hole? Because

2834
02:04:27,708 --> 02:04:30,125
there are these theories that when matter

2835
02:04:30,125 --> 02:04:31,041
falls into a black hole,

2836
02:04:31,041 --> 02:04:33,708
I mean, we know there is a point near the

2837
02:04:33,708 --> 02:04:36,375
center where Einstein's theory breaks

2838
02:04:36,375 --> 02:04:37,791
down, we call it a singularity,

2839
02:04:37,791 --> 02:04:38,416
because the curvature

2840
02:04:38,416 --> 02:04:40,750
of space-time blows up.

2841
02:04:40,750 --> 02:04:44,875
The density of matter goes to infinity.

2842
02:04:44,875 --> 02:04:46,708
And then people speculate, I mean, we

2843
02:04:46,708 --> 02:04:48,666
know that the reason that Einstein's

2844
02:04:48,666 --> 02:04:49,541
theory is incomplete

2845
02:04:49,541 --> 02:04:50,958
is because it doesn't

2846
02:04:50,958 --> 02:04:51,708
incorporate quantum mechanics.

2847
02:04:52,166 --> 02:04:53,500
That's what string theorists are trying

2848
02:04:53,500 --> 02:04:55,375
to do, unify, marry

2849
02:04:55,375 --> 02:04:58,375
quantum mechanics and gravity.

2850
02:04:58,375 --> 02:05:02,083
But as of now, we don't have a predictive

2851
02:05:02,083 --> 02:05:03,458
theory that combines

2852
02:05:03,458 --> 02:05:05,750
quantum mechanics and gravity

2853
02:05:05,750 --> 02:05:07,000
and says what happens

2854
02:05:07,000 --> 02:05:08,250
near the singularity.

2855
02:05:08,250 --> 02:05:09,041
What is the

2856
02:05:09,041 --> 02:05:10,125
replacement for the singularity?

2857
02:05:10,125 --> 02:05:11,916
So some people speculate, maybe the

2858
02:05:11,916 --> 02:05:13,958
matter that flows in

2859
02:05:13,958 --> 02:05:15,375
goes into another universe.

2860
02:05:15,375 --> 02:05:17,833
Maybe it's a pathway somewhere else.

2861
02:05:20,375 --> 02:05:25,208
After witnessing the clog in my basement,

2862
02:05:25,208 --> 02:05:26,500
I realized maybe

2863
02:05:26,500 --> 02:05:28,666
matter just collects there.

2864
02:05:28,666 --> 02:05:32,208
Just like the water, I thought it goes...

2865
02:05:32,208 --> 02:05:34,416
I didn't think actually where it goes.

2866
02:05:34,416 --> 02:05:38,458
There is a reservoir that the town owns,

2867
02:05:38,458 --> 02:05:40,541
but once it was clogged, then it started

2868
02:05:40,541 --> 02:05:41,583
collecting in the basement.

2869
02:05:41,583 --> 02:05:44,500
So in much the same way, perhaps there is

2870
02:05:44,500 --> 02:05:46,708
an object at the center of a black hole

2871
02:05:47,791 --> 02:05:49,291
and matter that falls

2872
02:05:49,291 --> 02:05:51,333
onto it collects around it.

2873
02:05:51,333 --> 02:05:53,916
And this object can have the highest

2874
02:05:53,916 --> 02:05:56,583
density that is possible in nature, which

2875
02:05:56,583 --> 02:05:59,333
is called the Planck density.

2876
02:05:59,333 --> 02:06:02,291
And we will never know whether an object

2877
02:06:02,291 --> 02:06:05,500
exists because it's hidden from us by the

2878
02:06:05,500 --> 02:06:06,583
horizon of the black hole.

2879
02:06:06,583 --> 02:06:09,541
The black hole is the ultimate prison.

2880
02:06:11,125 --> 02:06:13,208
According to Carl Schwarzschild, it has a

2881
02:06:13,208 --> 02:06:16,666
region around it from where light cannot

2882
02:06:16,666 --> 02:06:17,875
escape, nothing can escape.

2883
02:06:17,875 --> 02:06:19,958
So you can check into that region, but

2884
02:06:19,958 --> 02:06:21,791
you can never check out.

2885
02:06:21,791 --> 02:06:23,708
Hotel California.

2886
02:06:23,708 --> 02:06:25,375
I had to do it.

2887
02:06:25,375 --> 02:06:29,791
Well, yeah, it's also like Las Vegas,

2888
02:06:29,791 --> 02:06:33,500
what happens in a black hole stays there.

2889
02:06:34,541 --> 02:06:39,583
But it's possible that there is near the

2890
02:06:39,583 --> 02:06:42,875
center a star like object.

2891
02:06:42,875 --> 02:06:46,583
And in fact, I'm currently working on a

2892
02:06:46,583 --> 02:06:49,083
paper that relates to this idea.

2893
02:06:49,083 --> 02:06:51,166
And it was all inspired by

2894
02:06:51,166 --> 02:06:54,041
the sewer in the basement.

2895
02:06:54,041 --> 02:06:56,750
Just to show you that, you know, the

2896
02:06:56,750 --> 02:06:59,708
ideas that I have first

2897
02:06:59,708 --> 02:07:00,708
are not difficult to explain.

2898
02:07:00,916 --> 02:07:02,625
They are relatively simple minded

2899
02:07:02,625 --> 02:07:06,041
because, you know, I'm a farm boy.

2900
02:07:06,041 --> 02:07:10,041
Second, you know, they are not

2901
02:07:10,041 --> 02:07:10,708
necessarily the

2902
02:07:10,708 --> 02:07:12,583
direction that other people take.

2903
02:07:12,583 --> 02:07:16,791
And the only way to verify reality,

2904
02:07:16,791 --> 02:07:20,291
whether it agrees with my notion of it or

2905
02:07:20,291 --> 02:07:23,208
someone else's, is by experimentation.

2906
02:07:23,208 --> 02:07:25,791
And that is the part that I'm taking with

2907
02:07:25,791 --> 02:07:26,708
the Galilio project.

2908
02:07:26,791 --> 02:07:30,083
I completely surrender my pride, my ego

2909
02:07:30,083 --> 02:07:33,166
to whatever nature tells us.

2910
02:07:33,166 --> 02:07:34,791
It's a learning experience and we

2911
02:07:34,791 --> 02:07:35,833
shouldn't assume that we

2912
02:07:35,833 --> 02:07:38,041
know the answers in advance.

2913
02:07:38,041 --> 02:07:41,041
And therefore, you know, I very much hope

2914
02:07:41,041 --> 02:07:43,041
to see a tweet from Elon Musk when the

2915
02:07:43,041 --> 02:07:45,083
Galilio project finds evidence for an

2916
02:07:45,083 --> 02:07:48,375
extraterrestrial device in our backyard.

2917
02:07:48,375 --> 02:07:49,791
I hope he does.

2918
02:07:49,791 --> 02:07:51,583
Abiy, are you familiar with Chaim Ashad?

2919
02:07:51,583 --> 02:07:54,583
He's the former director of Israelis

2920
02:07:54,583 --> 02:07:55,708
equivalent to NASA, essentially.

2921
02:07:56,583 --> 02:07:58,041
Chaim Ashad wrote an

2922
02:07:58,041 --> 02:08:01,250
email to me at some point.

2923
02:08:01,250 --> 02:08:05,125
He made a statement to a major Israeli

2924
02:08:05,125 --> 02:08:07,875
newspaper that he knows that there is

2925
02:08:07,875 --> 02:08:11,458
some classified information that

2926
02:08:11,458 --> 02:08:15,041
indicates a galactic federation of

2927
02:08:15,041 --> 02:08:16,958
intelligent civilizations.

2928
02:08:16,958 --> 02:08:19,666
Now, my take on this is that it's not

2929
02:08:19,666 --> 02:08:21,916
supported by any

2930
02:08:21,916 --> 02:08:24,708
documents or any direct evidence.

2931
02:08:25,458 --> 02:08:27,208
And the problem I have is there are many

2932
02:08:27,208 --> 02:08:30,666
people who claim that they are Napoleon.

2933
02:08:30,666 --> 02:08:33,125
And when you ask them for their idea,

2934
02:08:33,125 --> 02:08:33,875
they cannot provide

2935
02:08:33,875 --> 02:08:35,083
you an idea of Napoleon.

2936
02:08:35,083 --> 02:08:36,041
Also, I know that

2937
02:08:36,041 --> 02:08:40,625
Napoleon, the true Napoleon, died.

2938
02:08:40,625 --> 02:08:41,958
So it's unlikely that

2939
02:08:41,958 --> 02:08:44,041
those people are Napoleon.

2940
02:08:44,041 --> 02:08:48,625
OK. And if they keep insisting on that,

2941
02:08:48,625 --> 02:08:49,500
you know, there are places

2942
02:08:49,500 --> 02:08:50,500
where you put such people.

2943
02:08:51,583 --> 02:08:55,916
So if you insist on a notion that you can

2944
02:08:55,916 --> 02:08:58,750
provide no evidence for,

2945
02:08:58,750 --> 02:09:01,666
that's not a good place to be.

2946
02:09:01,666 --> 02:09:09,416
What you want to say is something is

2947
02:09:09,416 --> 02:09:13,458
known and I have a way of proving it or

2948
02:09:13,458 --> 02:09:16,958
you say nothing or you say I'm seeking

2949
02:09:16,958 --> 02:09:17,708
the evidence for it.

2950
02:09:18,250 --> 02:09:20,416
That's also legitimate if you say it's

2951
02:09:20,416 --> 02:09:22,291
possible and I'm seeking the but he was

2952
02:09:22,291 --> 02:09:24,291
claiming that there is evidence, but he

2953
02:09:24,291 --> 02:09:27,333
can't provide any evidence for it.

2954
02:09:27,333 --> 02:09:29,666
And so I just don't

2955
02:09:29,666 --> 02:09:30,875
know what to make of it.

2956
02:09:30,875 --> 02:09:33,625
It's not very different from eyewitness

2957
02:09:33,625 --> 02:09:34,500
testimonies or people that

2958
02:09:34,500 --> 02:09:37,833
claim that they were abducted.

2959
02:09:37,833 --> 02:09:39,833
I'm not certainly not expecting or asking

2960
02:09:39,833 --> 02:09:41,916
you to justify or defend anything he

2961
02:09:41,916 --> 02:09:43,416
said, but I was curious just due to your

2962
02:09:43,416 --> 02:09:44,000
background, whether

2963
02:09:44,000 --> 02:09:44,708
there was any communication.

2964
02:09:45,375 --> 02:09:46,708
Actually, you did mention a letter. Could

2965
02:09:46,708 --> 02:09:49,416
you perhaps speak to that?

2966
02:09:49,416 --> 02:09:52,750
Well, I should say, Haim Hashed has a

2967
02:09:52,750 --> 02:09:57,875
very reputable career background in the

2968
02:09:57,875 --> 02:09:59,375
Israeli intelligence agencies.

2969
02:09:59,375 --> 02:10:02,791
So he's very respectable, but I was just

2970
02:10:02,791 --> 02:10:04,708
surprised that he speaks about it without showing any evidence.

2971
02:10:05,625 --> 02:10:09,041
And, you know, it's possible the

2972
02:10:09,041 --> 02:10:15,291
government has data that was not released

2973
02:10:15,291 --> 02:10:19,041
to the public, but I prefer to believe

2974
02:10:19,041 --> 02:10:20,250
that the government is

2975
02:10:20,250 --> 02:10:22,291
simply incompetent scientifically.

2976
02:10:22,291 --> 02:10:23,916
They don't know what to make of whatever

2977
02:10:23,916 --> 02:10:27,708
data they have and to non-specialists, it

2978
02:10:27,708 --> 02:10:28,708
may look very unusual.

2979
02:10:29,916 --> 02:10:33,208
But the only way to advance our knowledge

2980
02:10:33,208 --> 02:10:35,583
is to get better data ourselves so that

2981
02:10:35,583 --> 02:10:38,208
we are not at the mercy of government

2982
02:10:38,208 --> 02:10:41,791
officials telling us what the sky has.

2983
02:10:41,791 --> 02:10:43,916
This is the sky is not classified.

2984
02:10:43,916 --> 02:10:46,625
We can look at it. So we

2985
02:10:46,625 --> 02:10:49,000
have access to the source.

2986
02:10:49,000 --> 02:10:50,625
So why should we rely on the government

2987
02:10:50,625 --> 02:10:52,708
to tell us what the source is?

2988
02:10:53,625 --> 02:10:55,458
Do you think there's any policy or

2989
02:10:55,458 --> 02:10:59,208
legislation that would help enable that

2990
02:10:59,208 --> 02:11:02,666
more public conversation?

2991
02:11:02,666 --> 02:11:05,500
Yeah, I do think that Senator Gillibrand,

2992
02:11:05,500 --> 02:11:08,083
Kirsten Gillibrand, is promoting

2993
02:11:08,083 --> 02:11:12,416
important initiatives, including the

2994
02:11:12,416 --> 02:11:15,000
establishment of the old domain

2995
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:17,541
resolution office, AERO,

2996
02:11:18,458 --> 02:11:23,000
and also making sure that it gets funded

2997
02:11:23,000 --> 02:11:27,333
and opening the path for people to report

2998
02:11:27,333 --> 02:11:28,375
about things that they

2999
02:11:28,375 --> 02:11:29,375
saw that were unusual.

3000
02:11:29,375 --> 02:11:32,791
But I also think that this approach will

3001
02:11:32,791 --> 02:11:35,791
not bring us closer to scientific

3002
02:11:35,791 --> 02:11:36,708
understanding of what these objects mean.

3003
02:11:37,250 --> 02:11:42,541
All it will do is, at best, identify some

3004
02:11:42,541 --> 02:11:45,541
balloons and tell us some other objects

3005
02:11:45,541 --> 02:11:47,166
have been noticed that

3006
02:11:47,166 --> 02:11:49,166
are strange and unusual.

3007
02:11:49,166 --> 02:11:50,541
But in order to figure

3008
02:11:50,541 --> 02:11:52,875
them out, we need better data.

3009
02:11:52,875 --> 02:11:57,750
And I think the only way for us to get

3010
02:11:57,750 --> 02:12:00,083
that data is to collect it ourselves and

3011
02:12:00,083 --> 02:12:02,000
make it open and have the

3012
02:12:02,000 --> 02:12:02,708
analysis being transparent.

3013
02:12:03,791 --> 02:12:06,625
Because if it's a matter of national

3014
02:12:06,625 --> 02:12:07,875
security, then it's not

3015
02:12:07,875 --> 02:12:08,791
interesting scientifically.

3016
02:12:08,791 --> 02:12:09,958
I don't care what the

3017
02:12:09,958 --> 02:12:14,250
Chinese are making as a scientist.

3018
02:12:14,250 --> 02:12:17,625
But if it's extraterrestrial, then

3019
02:12:17,625 --> 02:12:19,791
national borders are irrelevant.

3020
02:12:19,791 --> 02:12:20,708
It should be knowledge

3021
02:12:20,708 --> 02:12:22,916
that is shared by all humans.

3022
02:12:22,916 --> 02:12:26,250
It shouldn't be the preview of President

3023
02:12:26,250 --> 02:12:26,708
Biden to know about it first,

3024
02:12:27,666 --> 02:12:29,708
for the same reason that when Cecilia

3025
02:12:29,708 --> 02:12:32,000
Paine Kopaschkin found that the Sun is

3026
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:34,291
made of hydrogen, it wasn't the US

3027
02:12:34,291 --> 02:12:36,291
president who knew it first.

3028
02:12:36,291 --> 02:12:38,166
It was the entire scientific community.

3029
02:12:38,166 --> 02:12:40,500
So this is knowledge that should be

3030
02:12:40,500 --> 02:12:42,250
shared by all humans because it will

3031
02:12:42,250 --> 02:12:44,583
change our perspective

3032
02:12:44,583 --> 02:12:46,208
about our place in the universe.

3033
02:12:46,208 --> 02:12:48,666
And for one thing, my hope is that if we

3034
02:12:48,666 --> 02:12:50,000
find evidence for a

3035
02:12:50,000 --> 02:12:52,708
smarter civilization out there,

3036
02:12:53,125 --> 02:12:55,166
then we would realize that the small

3037
02:12:55,166 --> 02:12:56,833
differences among us

3038
02:12:56,833 --> 02:12:59,583
humans are meaningless.

3039
02:12:59,583 --> 02:13:01,666
And we should treat each other as equal

3040
02:13:01,666 --> 02:13:03,625
members of the human species.

3041
02:13:03,625 --> 02:13:05,666
Because if you look at all the atrocities

3042
02:13:05,666 --> 02:13:07,541
throughout human history, they were

3043
02:13:07,541 --> 02:13:09,916
shaped by groups of people feeling

3044
02:13:09,916 --> 02:13:11,708
superior relative to other people,

3045
02:13:11,708 --> 02:13:15,875
which makes very little sense given the

3046
02:13:15,875 --> 02:13:18,541
perspective of the universe at large.

3047
02:13:20,791 --> 02:13:23,083
I think I agree with you. I don't know if

3048
02:13:23,083 --> 02:13:25,333
really the United States is the vehicle

3049
02:13:25,333 --> 02:13:28,750
that could be the agency

3050
02:13:28,750 --> 02:13:30,291
to make such a proclamation,

3051
02:13:30,291 --> 02:13:32,541
to draw a conclusion about such a data.

3052
02:13:32,541 --> 02:13:34,500
I'm personally of the opinion that this

3053
02:13:34,500 --> 02:13:36,125
is a conversation that we can really

3054
02:13:36,125 --> 02:13:38,125
never reach a conclusion to until we have

3055
02:13:38,125 --> 02:13:41,583
a full worldwide international

3056
02:13:41,583 --> 02:13:41,708
conversation about it.

3057
02:13:42,750 --> 02:13:44,791
Right. And the one thing that is

3058
02:13:44,791 --> 02:13:46,375
interesting is that I

3059
02:13:46,375 --> 02:13:49,208
had visits to this home.

3060
02:13:49,208 --> 02:13:50,000
The sea?

3061
02:13:50,000 --> 02:13:55,291
Yeah. By people from Washington, D.C.

3062
02:13:55,291 --> 02:14:00,416
And to me, that illustrates that there is

3063
02:14:00,416 --> 02:14:02,041
something they don't fully understand,

3064
02:14:02,041 --> 02:14:04,500
that they need the help of scientists.

3065
02:14:04,500 --> 02:14:06,625
And the way I see it is that the work of

3066
02:14:06,625 --> 02:14:07,666
scientists is complementary

3067
02:14:07,666 --> 02:14:08,708
to the work of government.

3068
02:14:09,250 --> 02:14:13,208
I don't want to have access to classified

3069
02:14:13,208 --> 02:14:15,583
information because it will tie my hands

3070
02:14:15,583 --> 02:14:20,083
in doing my scientific work and

3071
02:14:20,083 --> 02:14:24,791
disclosing the results we get openly.

3072
02:14:24,791 --> 02:14:28,208
But I also don't want classified

3073
02:14:28,208 --> 02:14:32,166
information because in principle, we can

3074
02:14:32,166 --> 02:14:33,958
design instruments and put them together

3075
02:14:33,958 --> 02:14:36,791
and get better data than the anecdotal

3076
02:14:36,791 --> 02:14:37,416
reports that the

3077
02:14:37,416 --> 02:14:37,708
government has access to.

3078
02:14:38,875 --> 02:14:43,666
And we heard the hearing in the Senate by

3079
02:14:43,666 --> 02:14:46,750
Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick that he established

3080
02:14:46,750 --> 02:14:50,833
two teams that go over 650 reports.

3081
02:14:50,833 --> 02:14:56,041
And one team is populated by intelligence

3082
02:14:56,041 --> 02:14:57,708
experts and another by scientists and engineers.

3083
02:14:58,333 --> 02:15:02,833
And the best you can expect from this

3084
02:15:02,833 --> 02:15:07,333
kind of an exercise is that they would

3085
02:15:07,333 --> 02:15:10,791
identify some objects, some of them would

3086
02:15:10,791 --> 02:15:13,250
be of national security interest, some

3087
02:15:13,250 --> 02:15:15,500
may be of national security interest and

3088
02:15:15,500 --> 02:15:16,708
some would be, we don't know.

3089
02:15:18,166 --> 02:15:19,833
Those that we don't know are of most

3090
02:15:19,833 --> 02:15:23,958
interest to me. However, we can't revisit

3091
02:15:23,958 --> 02:15:27,000
those events, we can't get better data,

3092
02:15:27,000 --> 02:15:28,000
that's all we have, so

3093
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:29,750
they will remain unknown.

3094
02:15:29,750 --> 02:15:31,458
The only way to make progress is get

3095
02:15:31,458 --> 02:15:33,000
better data in the future, not do it

3096
02:15:33,000 --> 02:15:36,958
anecdotally, but just monitor the sky

3097
02:15:36,958 --> 02:15:39,375
systematically, 24/7 from many locations,

3098
02:15:39,375 --> 02:15:40,708
see what we find and figure it out.

3099
02:15:41,791 --> 02:15:43,041
And that's what you're doing. That's what

3100
02:15:43,041 --> 02:15:44,833
I'm doing. And I don't need anyone to

3101
02:15:44,833 --> 02:15:45,833
help me in that regard,

3102
02:15:45,833 --> 02:15:48,375
except we just need some funding.

3103
02:15:48,375 --> 02:15:53,791
And I hope that there would be curious

3104
02:15:53,791 --> 02:15:56,083
wealthy individuals like Elon Musk,

3105
02:15:56,083 --> 02:15:57,500
investing in the Galileo Project so that

3106
02:15:57,500 --> 02:15:59,708
we can figure it once and for all.

3107
02:16:00,208 --> 02:16:05,250
And we would reveal the results in an

3108
02:16:05,250 --> 02:16:07,916
open fashion, remove the stigma on the

3109
02:16:07,916 --> 02:16:10,791
subject. And if there is something

3110
02:16:10,791 --> 02:16:12,958
outstanding out there, we will talk about

3111
02:16:12,958 --> 02:16:16,208
it in an open way and publish

3112
02:16:16,208 --> 02:16:18,583
it in peer reviewed journals.

3113
02:16:18,583 --> 02:16:21,208
If there is nothing, if everything looks

3114
02:16:21,208 --> 02:16:24,166
like balloons, we can move on. Why waste

3115
02:16:24,166 --> 02:16:25,333
more time on it? So I

3116
02:16:25,333 --> 02:16:26,708
think it's a win-win situation.

3117
02:16:27,833 --> 02:16:29,625
I agree with you. I'm really happy you're

3118
02:16:29,625 --> 02:16:31,958
looking into this and applying your skill

3119
02:16:31,958 --> 02:16:34,250
set and all the experience that you've

3120
02:16:34,250 --> 02:16:36,333
garnered an incredible life that you've

3121
02:16:36,333 --> 02:16:38,208
lived to bring all that

3122
02:16:38,208 --> 02:16:39,458
expertise onto this topic.

3123
02:16:39,458 --> 02:16:40,916
So thank you, Avi.

3124
02:16:40,916 --> 02:16:43,041
Thanks for having me. And I hope that

3125
02:16:43,041 --> 02:16:45,000
within a year or two, we'll have

3126
02:16:45,000 --> 02:16:46,750
something interesting to report because,

3127
02:16:46,750 --> 02:16:49,208
you know, this is a path that was not

3128
02:16:49,208 --> 02:16:51,333
taken, the road not taken in the spirit

3129
02:16:51,333 --> 02:16:53,708
of the words of Robert Frost in his poem.

3130
02:16:54,583 --> 02:16:57,166
And the one advantage of taking a road

3131
02:16:57,166 --> 02:16:59,750
that was not taken is that there may be

3132
02:16:59,750 --> 02:17:01,916
low hanging fruit since

3133
02:17:01,916 --> 02:17:04,291
nobody picked them up.

3134
02:17:04,291 --> 02:17:06,708
And obviously we'll put them on display

3135
02:17:06,708 --> 02:17:08,625
and everyone would see them. I promised

3136
02:17:08,625 --> 02:17:11,083
the curator of Museum of Modern Art that

3137
02:17:11,083 --> 02:17:13,500
if we find any technological gadget in

3138
02:17:13,500 --> 02:17:16,125
the Pacific Ocean, I'll bring it for

3139
02:17:16,125 --> 02:17:18,750
display in New York City because it

3140
02:17:18,750 --> 02:17:20,708
represents modernity for us.

3141
02:17:21,958 --> 02:17:23,833
And someone wrote an email to me and

3142
02:17:23,833 --> 02:17:26,833
said, please don't press a button because

3143
02:17:26,833 --> 02:17:29,375
it will affect all of us if you find a

3144
02:17:29,375 --> 02:17:31,625
gadget. And I said, don't worry about it.

3145
02:17:31,625 --> 02:17:33,833
I will not press any button.

3146
02:17:35,625 --> 02:17:38,500
And also it's unlikely that we will find

3147
02:17:38,500 --> 02:17:41,500
iPhone 100 at the bottom of the Pacific

3148
02:17:41,500 --> 02:17:44,708
Ocean. But, you know, if you ask me what

3149
02:17:44,708 --> 02:17:48,958
my dream is, it's very different from the

3150
02:17:48,958 --> 02:17:51,500
dream of Elon Musk to die on Mars.

3151
02:17:52,583 --> 02:17:57,000
My dream is to die in interstellar space.

3152
02:17:57,000 --> 02:18:00,291
I just imagine myself being on a mission

3153
02:18:00,291 --> 02:18:04,333
to space and then the mission fails and

3154
02:18:04,333 --> 02:18:07,083
my body drifts into interstellar space,

3155
02:18:07,083 --> 02:18:08,625
maybe kicked by Jupiter

3156
02:18:08,625 --> 02:18:09,708
into interstellar space.

3157
02:18:10,250 --> 02:18:12,291
And then I spend a billion years there

3158
02:18:12,291 --> 02:18:17,291
before I collide with an exoplanet. And

3159
02:18:17,291 --> 02:18:19,958
then I would appear as a meteor in the

3160
02:18:19,958 --> 02:18:22,458
sky of if that planet has an

3161
02:18:22,458 --> 02:18:25,500
atmosphere and is habitable.

3162
02:18:25,500 --> 02:18:27,166
My hope is that there would be an

3163
02:18:27,166 --> 02:18:29,541
astronomer over there looking at the sky

3164
02:18:29,541 --> 02:18:30,541
and saying, look at

3165
02:18:30,541 --> 02:18:32,458
this interstellar meteor.

3166
02:18:33,500 --> 02:18:37,125
Let's figure out what it was made of. And

3167
02:18:37,125 --> 02:18:41,125
that astronomer goes to the ocean on that

3168
02:18:41,125 --> 02:18:45,250
planet and connects the pieces of my body

3169
02:18:45,250 --> 02:18:48,875
and the spacesuit or whatever was left

3170
02:18:48,875 --> 02:18:52,250
and puts them on display in a museum.

3171
02:18:52,250 --> 02:18:54,750
That would be the greatest honor for me

3172
02:18:54,750 --> 02:18:57,208
to be recognized that I existed by

3173
02:18:57,208 --> 02:18:59,708
another civilization in a billion years.

3174
02:19:00,625 --> 02:19:02,291
Incredible. That would be quite the

3175
02:19:02,291 --> 02:19:04,708
honor. And your DNA would be there for

3176
02:19:04,708 --> 02:19:08,458
study. Maybe replication.

3177
02:19:08,458 --> 02:19:11,291
Yeah, that's not. I mean, I don't see

3178
02:19:11,291 --> 02:19:15,500
ourselves, humans, as the pinnacle of

3179
02:19:15,500 --> 02:19:17,666
creation. I think that the AI systems

3180
02:19:17,666 --> 02:19:19,000
will supersede our abilities

3181
02:19:19,000 --> 02:19:19,708
in the not so distant future.

3182
02:19:20,833 --> 02:19:23,791
So, you know, I'm very proud of our

3183
02:19:23,791 --> 02:19:26,125
technological kids as much as I'm proud

3184
02:19:26,125 --> 02:19:29,333
of my biological girls. I have two

3185
02:19:29,333 --> 02:19:31,458
daughters and very proud of them.

3186
02:19:31,458 --> 02:19:33,000
And I don't fully understand them. I

3187
02:19:33,000 --> 02:19:34,458
think we are now at a stage where we

3188
02:19:34,458 --> 02:19:37,583
don't fully understand GPT-4.

3189
02:19:37,583 --> 02:19:40,291
But we should be proud of whatever those

3190
02:19:40,291 --> 02:19:43,416
future AI systems accomplish, including

3191
02:19:43,416 --> 02:19:44,791
venturing into space and

3192
02:19:44,791 --> 02:19:46,666
becoming AI astronauts.

3193
02:19:47,458 --> 02:19:49,208
Speaking of siblings, they may not be AI,

3194
02:19:49,208 --> 02:19:49,708
but what do your

3195
02:19:49,708 --> 02:19:51,875
children think of this topic?

3196
02:19:51,875 --> 02:19:54,291
Your daughters?

3197
02:19:54,291 --> 02:19:59,083
They are excited about it, but I'm still

3198
02:19:59,083 --> 02:20:01,291
hopeful that they will follow my

3199
02:20:01,291 --> 02:20:02,416
footsteps in science.

3200
02:20:02,416 --> 02:20:03,708
It's not at all clear.

3201
02:20:05,000 --> 02:20:09,291
But I don't force myself on anyone. And,

3202
02:20:09,291 --> 02:20:13,500
you know, my hope is that during my

3203
02:20:13,500 --> 02:20:15,125
lifetime, we'll know the answer to the

3204
02:20:15,125 --> 02:20:15,666
questions that we

3205
02:20:15,666 --> 02:20:17,833
were just talking about.